Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Tue, 06 May 2008 23:30:59 Z

Software Updates Available Appears Every Day on Live Mesh Notifier

SUMMARY:

Live Mesh appears to ‘Update’ itself almost continuously. Every day the customer will see a message in the System Tray, via the Live Mesh Notifier, that there are ‘Software Updates Available’.

INTRODUCTION:

This experience is caused by the affected login not being a member of the Administrators group. The solution is to add the affected login to the Administrators group, enabling the installation of updates that are waiting in the update queue.

MORE INFORMATION:

Adding an account to the Administrators group; Windows Vista

1. Log off of the non administrator account

a. Click the Start logo, click or hover over the right arrow to expose options, select Log Off

2. Log into the machine with the local administrator account or another account that is already specified as a member of the Administrators group

a. Strike Ctrl-Alt-Delete and hold these keys down until you see the login screen

b. Enter the login and password of the Administrator or an administrator account

c. Log in

3. Access the Computer Management console

a. Click the Start Logo

b. Right click on Computer

c. Select Manage

d. Under Local Users and Groups, select Groups

e. Select the Administrators group, double click this

f. Click Add

g. Type the name of the account that you would like to add

h. Click OK

4. Log off of the administrator account that you just used and log in using the prior account that was experiencing the update issue with Live Mesh

Adding an account to the Administrators group; Windows XP

1. Log off of the non administrator account

a. Click Start, click Log Off then Log Off again

2. Log into the machine with the local administrator account or another account that is already specified as a member of the Administrators group

a. Strike Ctrl-Alt-Delete and hold these keys down until you see the login screen

b. Enter the login and password of the Administrator or an administrator account

c. Log in

3. Access the Computer Management console

a. Click Start

b. Right click My Computer

c. Click on Manage

d. Under Local Users and Groups, select Groups

e. Select the Administrators group, double click this

f. Click Add

g. Type the name of the account that you would like to add

h. Click OK

4. Log off of the administrator account that you just used and log in using the prior account that was experiencing the update issue with Live Mesh

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:47:34 Z

Does this mean that the account needs to be part of the Administrators group going forward or just during the first update?

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:27:32 Z

The account will have to be part of the Administrators group going forward, yes. If the account is not part of the Administrator's group then every subsequent update attempt will get caught in this same loop.

Tim

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:43:22 Z

That does not resolve the problem here. I have the account part of the Administrator group and I am still getting 3-4 update notices and needs for configuration a day. That is how it has been since I installed it. I have a bug report on this and they have been looking into it, as there appears to be others with the same problem. So, it appears the workaround does not work for everyone.

Jan :)

Windows XP - Vista - Internet Explorer

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:28:08 Z

In the isolated cases that we have seen where this work around does not work there is usually something else blocking us or denying us access when we try to write to certain places or create certain folders during the update process. This has causes the same symptoms as attempting these actions whilst not a member of the Administrators group. We are investigating the most common cause, right now we strongly suspect anti-virus programs.

Tim

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:22:09 Z

Tim,

Please tell me that there are plans to let Live Mesh users use limited user accounts. Microsoft's guidance to users is now to do all everyday activity under a non-administrator account, and to only use the administrator account for maintenance activities. I install / update software all the time using my limited user account simply by supplying my admin password. Why can't Live Mesh update correctly when an administrator password is supplied???

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:25:19 Z

We do plan on exploring our possibilities here. The limitation arises in that once you elevate a process, in this case the per account registration of certain COM objects, the system and the system's registry regard the resource as being registered to the administrator account itself. The system will then treat the elevated process literally as the administrator account in terms of how things are registered to the registry. When the limited account then tries to use the resource that is registered to the administrator account it is blocked from doing so by system policy. This is a unique problem affecting the registration of COM objects.

We are exploring ways around this scenario so that the customer facing experience is that things 'Just Work'. I have no ETA on when this work will reach the point where we can share it with everyone.

Thank you for helping us make a better Mesh for everyone!

Tim

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:30:00 Z

So the only work around is to add my user account to the Administrators group? Unfortunately, that makes Live Mesh unusable to security-minded users like me. :-(

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:44:35 Z

That is unfortunate, but yes. As I said before, we are exploring alternatives to this scenario as we understand how valuable this is for our customers.

Thanks again,

Tim

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:20:21 Z

Hi Tim,

Mesh is a fantastic product, which you should rightly be proud of, but I do hope this issue gets the attention it deserves, because it does majorly stimy the scope to use Mesh in any long term situation (I'm happy with the work around for now as Mesh is something I'm trying, but if I knew it wouldn't get fixed, I'd drop Mesh and learn to live without it :-( The security concerns are easily enough for me to take this seriously.

Perhaps one other simple UI tweak might be helpful too - when the messages were coming up daily I wasn't really paying attention and initially thought at first it was a genuine new update. Thus it was only when I decided to investigate more and found the issue described here that I realised it was failing to install.

The UI change I'd propose would be to subtly include an update number / id in the update message that pops up (plus maybe a date), so the user would quickly spot that in fact it was the same update again (i.e. it was failing to properly install the update). I appreciate this might then make Mesh look less than perfect, but it's better to be straight up with people as they'll just find out in the end and then might be less happy than if they found out up front.

Other than that, I really do love Mesh. I've yet to get friends using it, but there has been positive interest from a few mates who like what they hear from me extolling it's virtues!

Cheers,
Neil

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:21:23 Z

Serializing our update notifications is a great idea, I will note that on our list for consideration by the feature team. We do plan on addressing the core issue here and this should be considered only as a work around; expedient in the short term whilst we wait for the real solution which is likely to involve some sort of allowance for administrator elevation. The core problems with our alternatives are around how the shell handles per account registration of COM objects. The end goal is for everything to just work the way it should and that includes things like this scenario.

Thank you for your continued interest in our product and we really appreciate your help in making this better for everyone.

Cheers,

Tim

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:21:09 Z

I was on another computer (Vista Premium) and I realised this isn't possible in Premium (as you don't get access to the Local Users and Groups tool in MMC under Premium - I tried setting the user in question to be an Admin type account via the Users Control Panel (which seemed the logical non-Ultimate/Business way of doing something similar) and it doesn't work...

Any alternative ways. Incidentally, on my Vista Ultimate PC, I was quite keen not to permanently retain Admin rights on the relevant user, and I can report that adding it, doing the update and removing it worked well - more tedious, but I'd rather be disciplined than risk things getting messed up

Cheers,

Neil

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:37:22 Z

Is this problem fixed in:

- Live Mesh software: 0.9.3103.13
- Live Desktop: 0.9.3103.13

<rant>

I find this problem extremely under documented. It is my opinion, not being able to run Live Mesh software as a non-administrator without this problem among others *should be* well documented.

For example, when downloading the software, when looking in the FAQ, when looking in the README, and when looking on the forums, it should be easily understood that it is not recommned running this beta software if you do not run as an administrator.

As you can probably tell, I am irritated by this.

</rant>

Please let us know in this thread when one can run Live Mesh without problems when running Windows in a non-admistrator context.

Thanks

p.s. it would be great if my rant was all for nothing because it is fixed in the Aug 28th release :)

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:07:16 Z

We are working to improve this situation but full functionality under non-admin mode is still very far off. We greatly appreciate your feedback regarding this and you should know that the sentiment is echoed by many of our internal tech preview participants.

Thanks again for your participation and efforts to give us the feedback that will enable us to satisfy the expectations of even more customers; please keep it coming!

Regards,

Tim

Program Manager | Live Mesh

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:23:39 Z

I don't know what happened in my case. I am using my administrator account and I am sure that I installed my mesh in UAC off. I am still not able to upgrade it successfully every time. The upgrade works last time to bring me to the 0.9.3103.9, but fails to promote me to the new 0.9.3103.13 on my Vista Ultimate while it failed to bring me to 0.9.3103.9 on my other XP laptop but works for the new 0.9.3103.13. @_@
Is it possible that it is the language setting issue?

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:53:42 Z

I am having this issue with the following conditions: Windows Vista Ultimate 32, using administrator account, running Windows Live OneCare, Mesh version 0.9.3103.14. After every restart I am asked to update to 0.9.3103.14.

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:05:07 Z

Same problem here, on both my Vista 32 and 64 machines. I use an Admin-level account on both and nothing has changed to cause the problem other than the early-October update (all was fine prior). On my Vista 64 machine, I'm always prompted when Live Mesh loads. On my Vista 32 machine (which is experiencing another problem as well, related to Remote Desktop), I don't typically get a prompt automatically but do get one if I right click and select the Update option (before early October, such a selection would simply tell me Live Mesh was already up to date).

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:52:03 Z

Hi danwallie & NameIsDavid,

This is a relatively new known issue (manifesting in the same way as the older issue for which this workaround was written). It should be resolved in the next Live Mesh update (coming very soon). If, after the update you're still having this problem, please let us know right away so that we can investigate further.

Thanks,

Ben.

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:01:25 Z

I am having this same problem on my home PC. There is only one user setup, and it is the administrator.

Court

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Tue, 04 Nov 2008 11:37:27 Z

sure am grumpy about needing admin rights

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:55:33 Z

I'm sorry, but are you saying that, going against all good programming practice and security best practice, Microsoft is recommending that end users are elevated to Administrators so they can run Live Mesh?

Really?

I mean REALLY???

Tim, as a program manager in at Microsoft, you have access to all kinds of resources that we general plebian members of society don't have, yet you choose to stick with the "you must be an administrator to run Live Mesh" story against all manner of best practice evidence that this is an old, obsolete, insecure, unsafe and highly not recommended practice. Sure, I commend you for sticking up for your beliefs, but I certainly don't commend you for denying all the evidence to the contrary and insisting that we reduce the security of our networks to run Live Mesh.

And then, on top of that, Live Mesh installs perfectly alright as a Limited User. Now this, in addition tot he fact that the Limited Users then need to be promoted to Administrators to properly run Live Mesh leaves me wondering how the Live Mesh team can be allowed to get away with these sorts of shortsighted and dangerous practices in 2009 inside Microsoft.

It seems that the general consensus here in this thread and with anyone who has any understanding at all of security is that what Live Mesh is doing, suggesting and requiring relates to software practices that should have died out well into last millennium and not still managed to exist almost a decade into this one!

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:30:41 Z

You are replying to a thread that is a year old.
You do not need Admin rights to run Live Mesh.
-steve

~ Microsoft MVP Windows Live ~ Windows Live OneCare| Live Mesh|MS Security Essentials Forums Moderator ~

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:25:10 Z

G'day Stephen,

It installs without admin rights - BAD, really bad. Still, as in a year later, this is the case. Bad, bad security practice there. It won't configure the Remote Desktop connector unless it elevates, and then when elevated, it complains that "Some updates were not configured. Get more help (Error: 80010123), and the "help" says the following:

Error 80010123

This error typically occurs if you have User Account Control (A feature in Windows Vista that can help prevent unauthorized changes to your computer. It will ask you for permission or an administrator password before performing actions such as installing new software or changing settings that could affect your computer's operation.) turned on but you are not logged on to your computer as an administrator. Log off your computer and then log on again as an administrator. See also Troubleshoot installation.

Error 80010123

Error 80010123
This error typically occurs if you have User Account Control (A feature in Windows Vista that can help prevent unauthorized changes to your computer. It will ask you for permission or an administrator password before performing actions such as installing new software or changing settings that could affect your computer's operation.) turned on but you are not logged on to your computer as an administrator. Log off your computer and then log on again as an administrator. See also Troubleshoot installation.

It seems that Live Mesh doesn't handle UAC well, which is surprising for a new Microsoft application. it handles it really, really badly, in fact.

Live Mesh has a number of security-related issues still. I honestly wonder how this got past the security folks in at Microsoft - it needs a serious rewrite as far as its security handling and requirements go, and it isn't even released yet! That's more than a little disturbing, to be totally honest.

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Sun, 25 Oct 2009 02:09:00 Z

I disagree with your observations. Live Mesh requires admin rights to install as do many programs that require updating of drivers and hooking into the shell as does Live Mesh with Remote Desktop and Sync capabilities. Once installed, you can run it fine as a limited user.
What security issues do you believe exist other than the installation requring admin rights to properly install?
-steve

~ Microsoft MVP Windows Live ~ Windows Live OneCare| Live Mesh|MS Security Essentials Forums Moderator ~

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Sun, 25 Oct 2009 08:42:12 Z

G'day Stephen,

You must be running a totally different Live Mesh installer to the one I have. When I try to install Live Mesh 0.9.4014.7 x64 by using "Run as Administrator", the following error message is shown:

Live Mesh
Product does not support running under an elevated account.
The class is not configured to suppport Elevated activation.

Get more help (Error: 80080017)

So, the installer refuses to run with elevation, therefore installs (as does Microsoft Vine beta) without needing elevation which as I mentioned above, goes against all good programming practices and security best practicves and also against what Microsoft has been recommending to developers since around the NT 4.0 days (at least). It installs to "C:\Users\Hilton\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Live Mesh\Bin\Servicing\0.9.4014.7\MoeMonitor.exe" instead of to "C:\Program Files" which is where it would have installed in the normal world - requiring elevation to be installed there.

Live Mesh constantly updating itself - workaround

Mon, 26 Oct 2009 01:14:21 Z

I didn't say that you needed to install with elevated privileges, you install while running as admin. If you do not install under an admin account, it installs, but I am pretty sure (I haven't done this in a while...) that you then need to install the desktop enhancements by approving the UAC elevation. The notifier will alert you to install the enhancements in that case.
I can't speak for the install path and best practices or not as I'm not a developer.
-steve

~ Microsoft MVP Windows Live ~ Windows Live OneCare| Live Mesh|MS Security Essentials Forums Moderator ~