So. whats what exectly ??
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יום חמישי 17 יולי 2008 23:59So. as someone without any background of any kind of technical certification or experience i got a bit stuck trying to understand whats what on my own.
I do have basic understanding of how things work and how to use the computer, stuff i managed to understand on my own (setting up a home network, defining IPs on my router and stuff like that) but from that to be an IT professional and get a job in the field theres a long way to go.
so, after i made the decision thats what i want to study and do in my life, all i have to do is get the money and pick a course. then i just need to work for the certification i know i could get.
but entering the Microsoft learning website got me more confused then ever.
i really have no idea whats what. what is the subject and highlights of the different Certifications ? whats easier to achieve ? what costs more to achieve? what counts more then what ? whats needed more on the working market ? so many titles and so many definitions and no simple explanation about the differences between them.
any help with that please?
thanks a lot.
כל התגובות
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יום שישי 18 יולי 2008 01:01מנחה דיוןThe best advice, and most honest advice, I can give you now is; Do not concern yourself with certifications at this time. Certifications are designed for individuals to test their proficiency on specific technology. Microsoft certifications are not for those new to the I.T. field. You have listed 7 Microsoft certifications above - all with different specialties. If you are serious about breaking into the field, it helps to know what you want to do. Only you can decide that. It would take entirely too long to list the subjects and highlights of each listed above when you can simply read them to understand what is what. I understand right now that you are new to this. And that's okay. But certifications are not a beginning point.
What is easy for one to achieve, may be difficult of another. It all boils down to proficiency. How much you have and in what technology.
All Microsoft exams are $125 US. Now what you invest in training, material, etc. is entirely up to you.
I didn't follow your next question as to "what counts more than what?" I am assuming you mean is one certification valued more than the other? Yes. In the eyes of your employer. You may not be valued as much if you hold a MCDBA if your employer needs a Systems Engineer. Get my meaning?
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
יום שישי 18 יולי 2008 01:14Thanks for the replay
yes, i do get your meaning... and i realize that an employer who needs a Systems Engineer wont value a MCDBA. but as a person who wants to get into the field i should know how to do something and then look for an employer who needs it, not the other way around.
so the question is, how do i pick what i want ? how do i know what i would like doing the most ? i have basic (very very basic) knowledge in every field, but i don't really know what Im good at more then the rest.
you said the certifications are not a beginning point. questions is, what is ? where should i start ?
i know thats what i wanna do and thats the field i wanna study (and work in). question is... where do i begin ?
thanks a lot
A.Sandler
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יום שישי 18 יולי 2008 06:04מנחה דיוןWhat is it about the I.T. field that got you interested? Start there. You have to have some idea as to what you want to do in the field. Figure that out and your path will become clearer - and it will allow us to better advise you.
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
יום שישי 18 יולי 2008 20:05Let me add a little to what Michael has said....
First, you're right, there's a lot to digest when you're first looking at all the certifications.
Since you can set up your home network, you have some aptitude with networking and computers. That's a great place to start. Not everyone has that aptitude.
One of the things I've enjoyed about certifications is that while pursuing them, you expand your knowledge. They provide a great road map for you to guide your learning. As an example, I recently took and passed the certification exams for Windows Vista.
MCITP: Consumer Support Technician (70-620 and 70-623)
MCITP: Enterprise Support Technician (70-620 and 70-622)
While doing this, I learned a lot about Windows Vista that I otherwise wouldn't have touched. I ended up creating a movie with Windows Movie Maker, and created a movie-like DVD of last Christmas pictures using the DVD maker. I learned a lot more than this while studying, but this is just an example of some neat stuff I learned in the process.
What what you gave as your background, I'd suggest you pick up a book or two on these certifications. Unfortunately, this book won't be out for a few months, but you can find other books. In the process you can figure out if you enjoy IT. Do the exercises in the book to build experience. Use the practice exams to test your knowledge.
With a certification or two under your belt, you're better poised to get an entry level job. Often the certification on your resume is enough to get an interview, and then you can prove you have the knowledge in the interview. With a job in the field, you'll find you can leapfrog your knowledge and move into higher level positions.
HTH,
Darril Gibson
MCT, MCDBA, MCITP, MCSE, MCSD
http://mcitpsuccess.com/
http://mcitpsuccess.blogspot.com/
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Administration All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-443, & 70-444)
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Developer All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-441, & 70-442) -
שבת 19 יולי 2008 04:13משיב As the others have said you are kind of vague on what path you want to follow in the computer world, but you might want to consider taking the Comptia A+ & Network + certifications first if you want to go the Networking/Systems route. I feel the prepare newcomers with a good baseline of knowledge to get thier foot in the door someplace and start gaining actual hands on experience.
Once you get that experience you can start to figure out where you want to go from there.
You might also want to look at the Roadmap that Ben posted about recently and that can give you some help in how to start down various paths:
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/education/roadmap/default.mspx
Good luck!
Dave
DaveLawlor.com- נערך על-ידי Dave LawlorEditor שבת 19 יולי 2008 04:19 Fixed sig
- סומן כתשובה על-ידי Michael D. AlligoodModerator יום שלישי 22 יולי 2008 02:11
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שבת 19 יולי 2008 19:27מנחה דיון
Darril said:
What what you gave as your background, I'd suggest you pick up a book or two on these certifications. Unfortunately, this book won't be out for a few months, but you can find other books. In the process you can figure out if you enjoy IT. Do the exercises in the book to build experience. Use the practice exams to test your knowledge.
D, the book you linked to is available. It was available late March 08. Having read and reviewed it, I found it very informative and useful.
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
שבת 19 יולי 2008 20:48I guess I gave the wrong link. I meant to link to this book: MCITP Windows Vista Support Technician All-in-One Exam Guide (Exam 70-620, 70-622, & 70-623) but I see instead that the link is to the MCITP Consumer support technician page.
Either way, there a lot of good books out there for all the certifications. For A. Sandler, picking one up and studying for some certification (even A+ or Network + as Dave suggested) is a great way to get involved with IT.
Darril Gibson
MCT, MCDBA, MCITP, MCSE, MCSD
http://mcitpsuccess.com/
http://mcitpsuccess.blogspot.com/
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Administration All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-443, & 70-444)
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Developer All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-441, & 70-442) -
יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 03:01מנחה דיוןDarril said:
Either way, there a lot of good books out there for all the certifications. For A. Sandler, picking one up and studying for some certification (even A+ or Network + as Dave suggested) is a great way to get involved with IT.
Unless he chooses something like programming or developing; in which case an A+ and Network+ would be useless and a waste of time. No one should get certified just for the sake of being certified - or in hopes of employment, making more money, etc..
Sandler, find out what you want to do in the I.T. field. Research the aspects of different careers in the field. Find what you think will be appealing to you. Get some proficiency in that area THEN concentrate on certifications. Any other way and you will just devalue yourself and your certifications with potential employers.
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 05:09משיבMichael D. Alligood said:
Unless he chooses something like programming or developing; in which case an A+ and Network+ would be useless and a waste of time.
I would totally disagree, more developers should have a clue about networking/hardware and maybe I would be pounding my head against the desk everytime I have to have a discussion with them on how to troubleshoot a problem on the server when they have an "opinion".
Conversely I am taking programming classes so I can appreciate what they are doing also.
Not to mention almost every 1st level/desktop support job I am seeing in my area requires an A+, I dont consider it as a "high level" cert like the MS product ones. The A+ to me differentiates you from being a user to someone who really wants to be in the field. The only reason I pointed him in that direction was because his OP talked about setting up home networks seemed to be bent that way. He of course should start looking at all options which the roadmap link certainly will help.
Dave
DaveLawlor.com- נערך על-ידי Dave LawlorEditor יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 05:15 add more info
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יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 07:06wow guys. you really helped me alot. the map was the perfect thing.
actually proves the saying "one picture is worth 1000 words".
now i understand for example that an MCSA is one stage on the way to MCSE... and is worth alot less (yes, thats what i meant... if an MCSA is a stage to MCSE, it is lessed valued by any employer).
now, after ruling out the developer direction and the support technician (im not support guy, or any kind of working with people guy :S ). i have 4 more direction from wich i need to choose.
im not sure i understand what a specialized business worker have to do with IT... so ill leave that out also.
so we have the DB direction... can i get more info about that ?
i really have no experiance working with Databases... other then making an online 'guestbook' on a website .... as simple and basic as possiable
and now, about the direction that interest me the most. what is the difference between an MCSE and an MCITP? i can see an MCSE study the use of windows server 2003 and that the MCITP learns the use of windows server 2008.
is an MCITP more advanced then an MCSE ? or its a total different direction ?
is an MCITP more valued then an MCSE (like and MCSE is better then an MCSA - or is it not ?) or it depends on the job requirments ??
as i understand (from reading the titles only, so i really dont have a clue), and MCSA just manage a server network while an MCSE set it up.
tho through the same logic, and MCITP also dose what an MCSA dose... but with newer programs. so is it more valued or less valued then an MCSE ?
the map pdf shows them in totally differen directions... so maybe im way off...
any answers ? -
יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 09:50You really seem to be good at pulling a lot of the relevant information out of what's on the web pages.
You're right on target that the MCSE is Windows Server 2003 and MCITP is Windows Server 2008 (though MCITP can also be other topics such as SQL and Vista). Additionally, MCSA (and MCITP Server Administrator) are geared toward managing and administering servers within a network while MCSE (and MCITP Enterprise Administrator) are geared more to higher level system administration tasks within a network such as designing and engineering.
On databases, Microsoft has three certification paths for SQL Server 2005.
MCITP: Database Administrator A database administrator understands the basics on databases and has a primary job focus of maintaining the database server.
MCITP: Database Developer A database developer works with the programming and development aspects of databases. This includes designing databases, and writing scripts and database objects such as stored procedure to use and manipulate the data.
MCITP: Business Intelligence Developer A BI developer is a little more advanced and is able to pull relevant data out of databases and make them available and useful to end users, changing it from mountains of data to actionable intelligence.
Additional certifications are available for SQL Server 2008 but SQL Server 2008 hasn't been released yet and none of the exams have gone live.
The "value" of any certification is really in the eyes of the employer. If the employer is running Server 2003 with no plans of upgrading to Server 2008 in the near future, they wouldn't value your MCITP Enterprise Enterprise Administrator certification. Similarly, if they just completed a migration of all their servers to Server 2008 and you have a MCSE in Server 2003, the MCSE isn't as valuable.
Given your background, I would anticipate it will take some time to earn these system administration certifications so you may want to focus on the Server 2008 certs if system administration is what you want. There's no guarantees though.
HTH,
Darril Gibson
MCT, MCDBA, MCITP, MCSE, MCSD
http://mcitpsuccess.com/
http://mcitpsuccess.blogspot.com/
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Administration All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-443, & 70-444)
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Developer All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-441, & 70-442)
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יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 10:08Michael D. Alligood said:Michael,
Unless he chooses something like programming or developing; in which case an A+ and Network+ would be useless and a waste of time. No one should get certified just for the sake of being certified - or in hopes of employment, making more money, etc..
I don't think anyone is saying people should "get certified just for the sake of being certified."
However, I will certainly say that certifications provide an outstanding objectives list. If I try to learn a topic without objectives, my studies aren't as focused as they are with clear objectives. Studying for a certification, and with a defined goal of getting certified (which becomes my motivator), has often helped me understand what the vendor considers important. The certification may or not help me gain employment or make more money, but the knowledge gained in the process will.
I wholeheartedly agree that someone should become proficient before trying to land a job, but how do you become proficient? What comes first, the chicken or the egg? I disagree that using an objectives list to learn a topic and then testing your comprehension of that topic by taking a certification exam devalues a person.
Admittedly, some of the information learned in the process of studying the objectives and passing a certification exam isn't used on the job, but the same goes for some of the knowledge I gained in college. I've still yet to find a use for the isosceles triangle information, but maybe I learned that in high school.
r/Darril Gibson
MCT, MCDBA, MCITP, MCSE, MCSD
http://mcitpsuccess.com/
http://mcitpsuccess.blogspot.com/
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Administration All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-443, & 70-444)
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Developer All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-441, & 70-442) -
יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 18:56מנחה דיוןDarril,
It is a matter of opinion. But I cannot agree with the concept of achieving certifications to feel the void of experience. I have nothing against anyone studying for certifications. However, knowledge is NOT power. Implementation of knowledge IS power. Which leads to experience; and that leads to proficiency. Knowledge + Experience = Proficiency. And proficiency is the foundation to any certification program.
Why is it that a majority have this misconception that on-the-job training is the only way to gain experience? Prying your nose out of a book and implementing the knowledge you learn (by any means possible) is experience. One does not have to be paid for it to be considered experience. But that the issue isn't it. We don't want to work without being paid. Far enough, but sacrificies have to be made somewhere.
As far as the chicken and the egg; it really doesn't matter to me. They both taste great!
And we still disagree that an A+ and or Network+ has any real benefit to a programmer! :) I say we meet up and discuss it over some adult beverages. But you're buying!
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
יום ראשון 20 יולי 2008 19:10מנחה דיוןSandler Alon said:
now i understand for example that an MCSA is one stage on the way to MCSE... and is worth alot less (yes, thats what i meant... if an MCSA is a stage to MCSE, it is lessed valued by any employer).
now, after ruling out the developer direction and the support technician (im not support guy, or any kind of working with people guy :S ).
You are looking at these certifications as value. What is valuable about a sheet of paper; unless it's money! The value lies in the person that earned them. More so, it lies in the person's proficiency.
You're not a support guy??? What do you think you will be doing as a Systems Administrator or Engineer, or I.T. Professional certified under Windows 2008??? You will be supporting users, devices, and networks! You will be the guy people call (for whatever stupid or valid reason).
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
יום שני 21 יולי 2008 01:42ok, if all jobs are somehow support related ... so whats the difference ? and whats the benefits of being a "support technician" ?
now, all you guys say is that the xertification should come after you have experiance in the field. but how can i get experiance in the field without working in it ? whats so wrong about working towards a certification and useing at to get a job... and then using that job to get experiance and become a pro ?
any more answers about the other questions ? -
יום שני 21 יולי 2008 04:59מנחה דיוןSandler Alon said:
wow guys. you really helped me alot. the map was the perfect thing.
actually proves the saying "one picture is worth 1000 words".
now i understand for example that an MCSA is one stage on the way to MCSE... and is worth alot less (yes, thats what i meant... if an MCSA is a stage to MCSE, it is lessed valued by any employer).
now, after ruling out the developer direction and the support technician (im not support guy, or any kind of working with people guy :S ). i have 4 more direction from wich i need to choose.
im not sure i understand what a specialized business worker have to do with IT... so ill leave that out also.
so we have the DB direction... can i get more info about that ?
i really have no experiance working with Databases... other then making an online 'guestbook' on a website .... as simple and basic as possiable
and now, about the direction that interest me the most. what is the difference between an MCSE and an MCITP? i can see an MCSE study the use of windows server 2003 and that the MCITP learns the use of windows server 2008.
is an MCITP more advanced then an MCSE ? or its a total different direction ?
is an MCITP more valued then an MCSE (like and MCSE is better then an MCSA - or is it not ?) or it depends on the job requirments ??
as i understand (from reading the titles only, so i really dont have a clue), and MCSA just manage a server network while an MCSE set it up.
tho through the same logic, and MCITP also dose what an MCSA dose... but with newer programs. so is it more valued or less valued then an MCSE ?
the map pdf shows them in totally differen directions... so maybe im way off...
any answers ?
Okay, let me run through this and see if I can address your questions:
A Specialized Business Worker are those certified in Microsoft Office products. This is what I was referring to as I.T. being a broad field.
The MCDBA exams have retired or are due to retire in 2009. However the information you requested can be found here: http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcdba/requirements.mspx
All the next generation MCITP Database certification can be located here: http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcitp/default.mspx
The MCSE 2003 and the MCITP: EA and SA are different directions dealing with released versions (i.e. MCSE deals with Server 2003, MCITP: EA and SA deal with Server 2008. One is no more advanced than the other.
As far as value is concerned, we have buried that horse in previous posts.
To clarify, an MCSE can and does administers servers just like an MCSA does. The difference is that there is a design requirement with the MCSE that is not included with the MCSA. The MCSA was designed for those individuals who didn't require designing the network or security, but just administrating the network.
MCSA, MCSE, MCTS, and MCITP all deal with supporting the technology. This may be with software, devices, logical and/or physical topologies, users, etc.
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com -
יום שני 21 יולי 2008 09:15
now, all you guys say is that the xertification should come after you have experiance in the field. but how can i get experiance in the field without working in it ? whats so wrong about working towards a certification and useing at to get a job... and then using that job to get experiance and become a pro ?
Sandler,
I don't think that all of us think that certification should only come after experience in the field. I certainly don't.
Using certification objectives as learning objectives is an excellent way to gain knowledge. Even Michael suggests that on-the-job training isn't the only way to gain experience. You can gain experience while learning. Don't just read about the topics, but do exercises in books (and dig into those exercises so you know what you're doing). Download and install trial editions of the software. Break it. Fix it. Ask yourself questions, and then dig into the product to answer the questions. Again, use the certification objectives to guide your studies, but use your studies to get experience.
And I say your plan is sound. Use this experience and certification to get yourself an entry level job. As a hiring manager, I've heard a lot of people say things like "I work with computers all the time" but when it's backed up with a certification showing specialized knowledge that statement has much more weight. And then work in that job enthusiastically, learning as much as you can and doing the best you can - "using that job to get experience and become a pro."
With all the information you've gained in this thread, what certification sounds like it appeals to you the most?
Darril Gibson
MCT, MCDBA, MCITP, MCSE, MCSD
http://mcitpsuccess.com/
http://mcitpsuccess.blogspot.com/
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Administration All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-443, & 70-444)
Author, MCITP SQL Server 2005 Database Developer All-in-One Exam
Guide (Exams 70-431, 70-441, & 70-442)
- סומן כתשובה על-ידי Michael D. AlligoodModerator יום שלישי 22 יולי 2008 02:14
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יום שלישי 22 יולי 2008 03:42Thanks alot.
your replays really help.
from all the information i have gained in this thread, some other threads and some more readings around the internet.... i am not sure yet, but i am interested in gaining an MCSE certification.
i'm not yet sure about it, and basically i still feel a bit weird with the saying that learning win server 2003 is as good as learning win server 2008.
now the question is how to begin learning ? i cant afford spending my time in a classroom course, but an e-learning program can become possible. question is, should i start with that ? or should i first read a book or two about these programs first ? what should come first ? the books? the course ? d/l the programs (trial vr) and playing with them ?
how long should it take (more or less)to gain that certification ? is it possible to learn all there is to pass the test in 3-4 months ? maybe even less ? whats the best plan to build up my knowledge towards that certification ??
thanks alot
Alon Sandler -
יום שלישי 22 יולי 2008 06:32מנחה דיוןAlon
We are all really trying hard here in helping you reach whatever it is you set out for. However I think you need sometime to digest everything, understand fully what's involved and make a decision about your future. You are a newborn to the I.T. field. And that's great. You seem to have tons of drive, but lack direction. This will cause you to make a lot of mistakes. Mistakes that can be avoided by slowing down a little and comprehending what you are trying to achieve.
An example: Windows Server 2003 networks are still very much in use. They will continue to be for sometime. Truth be told, there are still Windows Server 2000 networks running today! If chosen, you will not be learning a "dead language" in pursuing an MCSE 2003.
Another example: "Candidates for the MCSE on Windows Server 2003 certification typically have at least one year of experience implementing and administering both network and client operating systems. They are knowledgeable about the planning, design, and implementation of Microsoft Windows server solutions and architectures in mid-sized to large companies. The MCSE credential verifies your ability to analyze the business requirements for information systems solutions, and to design and implement infrastructures based on Windows Server 2003. By earning the premier MCSE credential, individuals are demonstrating that they have the skills necessary to lead organizations in the successful design, implementation, and administration of the most advanced Windows operating system and Microsoft Windows Server System."
Can one achieve an MCSE certification in 3-4 months? Yes, with validations. Meaning this person KNOWS the technology intimately. This person has worked in the objectives that make up the certification. This person is proficient. The other way to earn this in record time is to cheat the system.
I have seen experienced people take up to a solid year and a half to achieve an MCSE.
Learning is strictly a personal preference. Books work for some, while others require classroom instruction. Some can gain through e-learning, while others need hands-on. I believe in combinations of senses; sight, sound, touch. But that's me. As a trainer, I teach many different ways.
Again, I feel a pause is required. Pursuing something without fully understanding what it is you want to achieve can be costly in regards to time and money. It can also be demoralizing. I would review without haste the Microsoft Learning website and this and other threads like this.
START, RESEARCH, PLAN, PERFORM, FINISH, TEST, EVALUATE.
Michael D. Alligood,
MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+, Network+
www.theitclassroom.com
