none
Starting a new thread using the bridge RRS feed

All replies

  • an article to be edited
    edited

    --
    Kai


    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:50 PM
  • Very interesting.   After I edited the post on the web I tried to see if any more messages had come (using Headers) but it appeared that none had.  So I opened the header and got the updated OP.  I suppose that might have been expected.  Probably a better test would be to have actually downloaded the first version and then see how the bridge communicates to me the fact that the version I have is not the latest.  Let's try doing that with this reply.  E.g. send it, wait for its header to come in, and download it.   Then go and edit it on the web...   (I could also change the Subject before posting this but let's leave that for another time. <eg>)
     
     
    "Robert Aldwinckle on forums" wrote in message news:04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d...
    I expect this post's "Message-ID" to be the same as it original GUID.

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d

    Rather than put that in a reply I am editing the OP.   I already have the header for the OP.

    At the risk of screwing things up in WLMail I have set Work Offline and will attempt to open the header.   This is something that OE allows...

    And so does  WLMail!   Properties, Details...

    From: =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject: Starting a new thread using the bridge
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:30:57 -0400
    Message-ID: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain;
     charset="Windows-1252"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726


    Doublecheck on what's in the Address bar now:

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d?prof=required

    So far, so good.  

    Next, I close the message window, set Work Offline back on, and then click Submit here.

    Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:54 PM
  • I expect this post's "Message-ID" to be the same as it original GUID.


    WTH!   After sending my Edit successfully, I pressed Back and have come back to my unedited post.   Also, in the meantime I have sent a reply to that edited post and I also noticed that Kai has added a reply which preceded my reply.  So I have no idea what is going to happen now.

    You can not vote on your own  post.  E.g. in order to try to capture its URL.   Ok, then I can right-click on Edit  Copy Shortcut just the same.

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d/723336dc-61c0-4661-af20-7f877f2ba854/edit

    So we are still keeping the same threadId.  Before sending this Edit I'm going to check if its header was seen by the bridge.  It may be that I am doing this Edit too soon, in which case the bridge won't see the first version, just the version I am preparing to Submit.

    Here are the headers from Kai's post:

    From: =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject: Re: Starting a new thread using the bridge
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:50:07 -0400
    Message-ID: <16d67bdc-9daf-449d-825a-623648c9be72>
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain;
     charset="Windows-1252"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726

    Here are the headers from mine:

    From: =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject: Re: Starting a new thread using the bridge
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:54:29 -0400
    Message-ID: <19f2a6ef-2d5e-4980-abe8-0c1122479a39>
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain;
     charset="Windows-1252"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726

    Unfortunately like OE, WLMail gives us no clue about the message-number even though it knows it.   So before clicking Submit with this let's do a real  XOVER.

    xover 983-988
    224 Overview information follows
    983     =?utf-8?B?U3RhcnRpbmcgYSBuZXcgdGhyZWFkIHVzaW5nIHRoZSBicmlkZ2U=?=
    =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=        Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:30:5
    7 +0000 <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>          0       0
    984     =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=    Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000 <16d67bdc-9daf-4
    49d-825a-623648c9be72>  <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>  0       0
    985     =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=        Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:54:2
    9 +0000 <19f2a6ef-2d5e-4980-abe8-0c1122479a39>  <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd
    44f5d>  0       0
    986     =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=        Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:58:5
    8 +0000 <723336dc-61c0-4661-af20-7f877f2ba854>  <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd
    44f5d>  0       0
    987     =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=    Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:59:44 +0000 <1e71831b-ed09-4
    1c6-9023-21d938fbbc9e>  <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>  0       0
    988     =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=    Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:01:08 +0000 <69f93123-c490-4
    1dd-ba8e-4aef278d2375>  <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>  0       0
    .

    How useful!  Oh well, at least the numbers will be readable and match what WLMail will show me.

    Hmm...  I'm getting an error trying to Submit this...  Into HTML to see if that at least works...

    Dumbkopf!   I forgot I had Work Offline set.   ; ]

    Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:58 PM
  • ok, the article was edited and it's still got the same MID and the same
    message no. Just as expected. Perfect.
    We can't test what happens if a message gets removed ...

    --
    Kai


    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:59 PM
  • > So I have no idea what is going to happen now.

    And *I* have no idea what you are testing :-)

    --
    Kai


    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:01 PM
  • > After I edited the post on the web I tried to see if any more messages had come (using Headers) but it appeared that none had.

    Of course not. It's the same message, just another version of it in time. It gets the
    same MID and the same MNO (message number) (in this case it's 983). What the NNTP client does is store the last message no. it
    retrieved and check if the number count is higher now.
    Say we have now
    211 988 1 988 Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox

    so it retrieves
    article 986
    article 987
    article 988

    (or head or body ...) if the last article stored was 985.
    There are other ways, but this seems to be the most common and it's also what VA uses.
    I can reset the pointer value to anything I want in VA. If I reset it to 984 it will
    retrieve the "newer" message for me again and I have *both* messages in store and can
    view both.
    Let's try.

    --
    Kai


    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:11 PM
  • "Kai Schätzl" wrote in message news:16d67bdc-9daf-449d-825a-623648c9be72...
    an article to be edited
    edited

    --
    Kai



    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer


    Switching to plain text and copying its headers...

    Relay-Version:
    Posting-Version:
    Path:
    From: =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject:
    =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    Message-ID: <16d67bdc-9daf-449d-825a-623648c9be72>
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    Followup-To:
    References: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    Expires: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    Date-Received: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    Organization:
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="utf-8"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    I didn't open this until after I had two replies to my first post.

    I am replying to it before I open the second header.

    Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:21 PM
  • > Let's try.

    Yep. That works. After all, I knew that VA is a very good client :-) I
    just had to do it twice because I had to tell it to not skip duplicates
    which it does by default.

    Here's my original message:

    From: =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject:
    =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    Message-ID: <16d67bdc-9daf-449d-825a-623648c9be72>
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    References: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    Expires: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    Date-Received: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000

    an article to be edited

    --
    Kai



    class="sig">IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info
    Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer

    and here's the edited one:
    From: =?utf-8?B?S2FpIFNjaMOkdHps?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject:
    =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    Message-ID: <16d67bdc-9daf-449d-825a-623648c9be72>
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    References: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    Expires: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    Date-Received: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000

    an article to be edited
    edited

    --
    Kai




    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer

    irrelevant headers removed.
    Notice this: same date!
    and
    ->



    --
    Kai


    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:30 PM
  • Plain text + headers:

    Relay-Version:
    Posting-Version:
    Path:
    From: =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject:
    =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    Message-ID: <19f2a6ef-2d5e-4980-abe8-0c1122479a39>
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:54:29 +0000
    Followup-To:
    References: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    Expires: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:54:29 +0000
    Date-Received: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:54:29 +0000
    Organization:
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="utf-8"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


    "Robert Aldwinckle on forums" wrote in message
    news:19f2a6ef-2d5e-4980-abe8-0c1122479a39...
    Very interesting. After I edited the post on the web I tried to see if any
    more messages had come (using Headers) but it appeared that none had. So I
    opened the header and got the updated OP. I suppose that might have been
    expected. Probably a better test would be to have actually downloaded the
    first version and then see how the bridge communicates to me the fact that
    the version I have is not the latest. Let's try doing that with this reply.
    E.g. send it, wait for its header to come in, and download it. Then go and
    edit it on the web... (I could also change the Subject before posting this
    but let's leave that for another time. <eg>)


    "Robert Aldwinckle on forums" wrote in message
    news:04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d...
    I expect this post's "Message-ID" to be the same as it original GUID.

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d

    Rather than put that in a reply I am editing the OP. I already have the
    header for the OP.

    At the risk of screwing things up in WLMail I have set Work Offline and will
    attempt to open the header. This is something that OE allows...

    And so does WLMail! Properties, Details...

    From: =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject: Starting a new thread using the bridge
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:30:57 -0400
    Message-ID: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726


    Doublecheck on what's in the Address bar now:

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d?prof=required

    So far, so good.

    Next, I close the message window, set Work Offline back on, and then click
    Submit here.

    Where is my Edit? Before sending this reply let's see what is in

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d?prof=required

    (instead of doing a Refresh on the tab in which all I saw was my original
    post + my reply of surprise)

    Now I see everything that has happened since then, along with Kai's
    explanation that they must be updating the contents of the slot, not
    changing the Messgage-ID. The only support that OE and WLMail would have
    for that is the nntp:// protocol syntax but it's broken in both and not
    integrated into their message stores anyway. In addition, what will the
    notification mechanism be? I think that STO need to adopt the Supersedes:
    idea (with a new slot number) and David's idea of a fake Message-ID (or try
    to get away with reusing the existing Message-ID)


    Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:38 PM
  • I have ten headers now.   7 subthreads.   This will be the eighth.

    I have this one's header now.  

    Here is its  URL  (for an Edit).

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/comsandbox/thread/04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d/98cf4ee5-c9c4-4af3-b585-9a2021821c3f/edit

    I am going to open the message and show its Message number before using Submit on this Edit.

    Relay-Version:
    Posting-Version:
    Path:
    From: =?utf-8?B?Um9iZXJ0IEFsZHdpbmNrbGUgb24gZm9ydW1z?=
    Newsgroups: Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCB1c2luZyB0aGUgYnJpZGdl?=
    Message-ID: <98cf4ee5-c9c4-4af3-b585-9a2021821c3f>
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:41:09 +0000
    Followup-To:
    References: <04f6da6e-1b8f-4a96-aedb-c1443bd44f5d>
    Expires: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:41:09 +0000
    Date-Received: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:41:09 +0000
    Organization:
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/html;
     charset="utf-8"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    So the Message-ID matches with the last part of the URL but of course I don't see the updated message yet.   I received it before I submitted the Edit.  Kai thinks I will never see this Edit.  I suspect he's right.
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:41 PM
  • "Robert Aldwinckle on forums" wrote in message
    news:98cf4ee5-c9c4-4af3-b585-9a2021821c3f...
    I have ten headers now. 7 subthreads. This will be the eighth.

    But this has been edited. Now I will have no clear idea of what I am
    replying to.

    Message-ID: <98cf4ee5-c9c4-4af3-b585-9a2021821c3f>
    Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:41:09 +0000

    I wish the bridge had an Xref: header!

    WTH! The bridge doesn't even support xhdr Message-ID? (Bad enough that
    it forces me to type a second number in a range instead of just
    understanding that a trailing hyphen means "and to the end".)

    group Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    211 993 1 993 Microsoft.en-US.comsandbox
    xhdr Date 980-993
    221 Header follows
    980Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:24:07 +0000
    981Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:25:38 +0000
    982Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:17:40 +0000
    983Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:30:57 +0000
    984Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:07 +0000
    985Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:54:29 +0000
    986Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:58:58 +0000
    987Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:59:44 +0000
    988Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:01:08 +0000
    989Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:11:29 +0000
    990Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:21:11 +0000
    991Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:30:17 +0000
    992Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:38:12 +0000
    993Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:41:09 +0000
    ..
    xhdr Message-ID 983-993
    501 error



    Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:05 PM
  • I just realized that shows another bug.   The bridge hasn't updated  *its*  timestamp for that post either.   E.g. both Date: headers are showing the  18:41:09  time and that is still what it shows.  If the bridge really has the new updated copy to show me shouldn't it have the new copy's time too?

    Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:37 PM
  • > I just realized that shows another bug.

    not a bug, a choice of implementation.

    > The bridge hasn't updated *its* timestamp for that post either.
    > E.g. both Date: headers are showing the 18:41:09 time and that is still what
    > it shows. If the bridge really has the new updated copy to show me shouldn't it
    > have the new copy's time too?

    On first thought, yes, on second thought, no.

    A message-id is unique and the message belonging to this id is unique as well.
    That means it should always and everywhere be the same.
    Now, that we have the case that we retrieve the bodies realtime from the forum a
    change in body is sometimes inevitable. We have to accept that.
    Changing the header, too, makes bad worse. You cannot predict what clients will do if
    parts of the header, especially the date, change. And you also suddenly have message
    numbers that are not in date order anymore as edited messages may have a newer date than
    later messages. Which way the client uses to get messages it will either ignore
    a different date or it may get the second message or it may just bark out or throw
    an exception when it processes it and finds it's already in store but with a different
    date.
    So, changing the header causes unpredictable results and probably more disadvantages
    than advantages. I consider it a sane choice to not alter it. Most people using
    a newsreader use offline mode, so once you got a message you won't get the
    updated one, anyway.

    What might be helpful in an informational way is to use a
    X-Updated: header which shows the new date. This would then work like the Edited: line
    on the web. Still it wouldn't be helpful to get an updated article. Just that once
    you have an article you know if it was updated or not.

    --
    Kai


    IEFAQ: http://iefaq.info Newsgroup: microsoft.public.de.internetexplorer
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:14 PM