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New folder backup rules 2.0 RRS feed

  • Question

  • Why on earth would you not allow a user to select an entire folder for inclusion in a backup profile?

     

    "We feel that this is a positive step in ensuring that the important data you have is protected."

     

    How very condescending of you.  You are basically saying to the user, "We know better than you do which files you should backup."

     

    I know what is on my computer.  I know what I want backed up.  Please let me select it. 

    Monday, August 27, 2007 2:48 PM

Answers

  • Thanks for the post. I agree that removing this functionality from OneCare backup is a step backwards.

    -steve

     

    Monday, August 27, 2007 5:29 PM
    Moderator

All replies

  • Thanks for the post. I agree that removing this functionality from OneCare backup is a step backwards.

    -steve

     

    Monday, August 27, 2007 5:29 PM
    Moderator
  • Thank you!  I am glad to hear the agreement.  Stephen, do you work on development?  Talk to the developers?  Maybe send them memos from irate customers?

     

    Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 PM
  • We forum moderators are volunteers, but we have contact with the OneCare team. The "violent" disagreement with this change has been and will continue to be communicated. :-)

    Additionally, the forum is read by many members of the development team.

    -steve

    Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:09 PM
    Moderator
  • After having time to think about this, I've come to the conclusion they know exactly what they're doing.

     

    The OneCare backup was designed to be a data only backup and by removing the ability to specify all files it's clearly limited to only the data file types specified in the extension lists provided. By doing this they have removed any doubt that programs or operating system files can be backed up using this system.

     

    We may not like this as users with other needs, but I can quite clearly see why they'd do this based on past posts here by confused non-technical users. Letting someone backup these files only to later discover they can't effectively use them is foolish. Unfortunately, this also limits those of us who understand this and might use the ability in a slightly different way.

     

    If I were you, I'd suggest trying to explain what types of files you require that aren't now able to be backed up. Otherwise, I suspect that the larger issue of creating a foolproof data backup for the masses will heavily outweigh the requirements of a few technically knowledgeable users. To this point I've heard a few complaints, but no really good ones that indicate an inability to back up something specifc.

     

    I'm afraid that in my case this affects so few files, most of which I could simply download again from the Internet, that I can't in good conscience argue for the need for the ability myself. If I really preferred and required a folder heirarchy type of backup, I'd probably just use the program supplied with XP or Vista Business/Ultimate if I had those. I'm quite convinced we won't be seeing the OneCare backup moving in this direction.

     

    OneCareBear

    Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:18 AM
    Moderator
  • I disagree in them knowing what they are doing when it comes to deciding things for the customers. They think they know best, but giving the customer the ability to do what they need and want is what is best. This is something Symantec has learned but, Microsoft has yet to learn.

     

    The customer is paying for this program to do what they need it to do. The customer is paying for online storage and should be able to use it for what they need. So on and so on.

     

    They are doing this program the way they think it should be done. This does not mean they know best or it's what the customer wants. It only means it's what they want.

     

    I know I was hoping to be able to use 2.0 but, after reading the attitude of the developers and their lack of wanting to do what we need and the lack of features that the other programs have like Norton 360, they will continue to loose customers to those other products that are more full featured and user friendly.

     

    They could solve so many problems by simply allowing people to choose anything they want to backup and to any place they wish to backup to and stop trying to play daddy and telling people what they can or cannot backup or where they can or cannot backup to.

     

    It's the user's data. Let them make the decisions.

    Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:57 PM
  • Scortch, while I disagree with the decision to remove this functionality (selecting an entire folder, no matter what the content), I don't see it as a lack of listening on the part of the developers. I think they made a design decision along the lines of what OneCareBear is speculating. However, any time perfectly valid functionality is removed, I think it is a step backwards. The model for backing up data by type may not be the best for some users (I think you and I are in that camp), it works for most users. Changing OneCare to totally ignore some folders at all costs (\Program Files comes to mind) and removing the ability to add/exclude locations apart from the template of file types is still a step backwards and one that I hope the OneCare team reconsiders.

    -steve

     

    Thursday, August 30, 2007 4:29 PM
    Moderator
  • I totally agree. I just think they feel like they need to play daddy and protect people from themselves at the cost of functionality.

     

    I mean if I have to go to another program to get the backup features I need, then the backup section of OC is useless. Since I have to get another program now, why not get something like Norton 360 that does all OC does and more. Least that's my thinking and I'm sure a lot of others will too.

     

    It's just one less feature that think they need to protect us from.

     

    They need to just get over themselves and stop trying to play big brother and put the features in there so people can back up what they want to where they want and explain how to use them and the dangers of certain choices and let the user decide. It's their data after all.

     

    They are treating us like we are stupid. Sure, a lot of people out there are computer illiterate but still. A simple explanation on certain choices should be plenty.

     

    Norton 360 is designed to protect the user too and at first I thought man, this is too simplified. I need control over what's going on but, then I started digging and finding the options to disable this and that or change how it works, I liked it a lot more. It was buried and I had to dig for it but, at least it was there for those of us that know what we are doing.

     

    That's the way Microsoft should do it. Bury it in a special out of the way place but allow it to be changed the way the user wants it to be.

    Thursday, August 30, 2007 6:55 PM
  • All I've heard anyone state here so far is that they want the backup to work the way they want, no explanation as to what files this method really causes them to be unable to backup.

     

    The change was clearly made to block the ability to backup programs or system files, which were not supposed to be supported in the first place. The original Inclusions dialog left a loophole that some used for this purpose and then found later that it really still didn't allow true OS or program recovery. I believe that this is a completely reasonable change to insure that this confusion doesn't occur for those users that OneCare was really designed for.

     

    To this point only one user I'm aware of has identified a specific set of database files that this change has caused them to to be unable to backup. I also identified my own use of this loophole, but totally understand why that support has been removed.

     

    Unless there are other significant issues found where important data files are unable to be backed up, I don't see anyone making a really good argument against this change. "I don't like it this way" isn't a good argument.

     

    OneCarebear

    Friday, August 31, 2007 3:46 PM
    Moderator
  • Well, it's very simple for me. I pay for a program, I want it to do what I need. WLOC won't do that so I stay with Norton 360 which will allow me to backup what I want to where I want. It's that simple.

     

    It doesn't matter what they think, it's the customer that matters and there may come a time when the program will not allow someone to backup something they need (as has already been the case) due to lack of foresight by the team and the person will have to turn to something else to accomplish what they need, thus making WLOC obsolete in that area and since it's now obsolete in that area and there are programs out there that will work like someone needs, might as well just change over to that program.

     

    Lost money for Microsoft through lost customers which then spreads the word to other people and so on.

     

    What about files that online game makers use for their file extensions? Things like settings and interface files from 3rd party people and so on? You going to sit there and tell me the team will be able to think of every possible file extension that game makers will come up with? Just one example.

     

     

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 8:47 AM
  • Great! That's exacly what was expected when these design criteria were chosen over three years ago now. The original idea was that about 70% of the market for PC protection was being badly served, while the other 30% were technical users like yourself and were generally able to find programs they liked and understood.

     

    The problem with the underserved 70% is that they don't understand computers and generally don't want to. They are more difficult to provide protection for, since they rarely understand the technology behind what's happening. This requires that programs ignore technical terms and abilities and focus on simplifying things for the user.

     

    The ultimate program would automatically adapt to whichever type of user is currently sitting at the PC. Unfortunately, the technology of programming hasn't yet progressed to the point where it can reconfigure itself on the fly for these different kinds of users. So currently the state of the art in programming is to create 'Advanced' buttons and other 'hidden' menus for the 'experts' to use. However, this has failed miserably as too many non-technical users have gotten themselves in trouble by trying to use these more technical abilities.

     

    OneCare was created exactly for these reasons, to attempt to simplify and avoid all the pitfalls that other programs have run into by adding technical features. This runs completely against the existing flow of adding every feature that every techno-geek asks for and in fact would likely make most technical users avoid the product altogether.

     

    The result is that most of the technical users will want to use other products that like usual have been designed feature rich for the technical users who've always wanted such things. That's perfectly fine, since no product can satisfy 100% of the people and simply makes them part of the 30% Microsoft never expected to have interest in OneCare.

     

    The strange side effect of OneCare being well designed, however, has lead to some situations like yours. You see how well it works in a technical sense and thus want it to add the features you'd like so it can be what you want. However, that's going to cause the product to become more confusing for the non-technical user it was really intended to serve, so they just can't allow that to happen.

     

    This situation is the paradox of all products, they tend to 'grow up' with the users they serve. However, to succeed OneCare must remain the simple, non-technical, less feature rich, but foolproof program it was designed to be. This way it can continue to serve the non-technical new users, children and others who don't care to be computer experts, they just want to use their computers safely.

     

    As for items OneCare might not be backing up, if they are specified here by users and fit the description of user data files that aren't being displayed for backup, I'm quite certain they will be added to the list for inclusion. I personally wouldn't consider program settings as data, but if enough users showed interest, I'd think they'd provide a way to backup such settings for ALL programs, not just games. At this point I don't recall anyone else even suggesting this idea, so it would be unlikely without many such requests, especially from those non-techical users whom the product is intended to serve..

     

    OneCareBear

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:48 PM
    Moderator
  • So you are basically saying, that Microsoft is devloping Onecare for computer illiterates and all others need not apply. If you are anything past computer illiterate, then programs from other companies like Symantec, are for you.

     

    Well, least we know where they stand ahead of time. Now, are they going to tell people ahead of time that the backup feature is gimped and that if they need more, to look somewhere else?

     

    There goes a huge chunck of the market looking for something more user friendly.

    Sunday, September 2, 2007 5:16 AM
  • I much prefer the previous versions capability of being able to include folders and exclude files if I so desired. I have limited drive space for backup and do not want to include all of the files from all profiles. I know which files and folders I want to back up and have instructed my wife and children to place these files in these folders if they need to be backed up. Saves unneccessary files from consuming space at my backup location.

     

    Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:47 PM
  • I believe that you can still limit what is being backed up by setting up exclusions of folders for OneCare to not look to for backup. The one thing that is lost is if you are backing up files of a type not selected by OneCare by default, you can't simply tell OneCare to back up all files from a specific folder any longer. It will look to the folders you specifiy, but will still only select the file types it knows about.

    -steve

    Monday, September 17, 2007 4:41 PM
    Moderator
  • I personally feel that this would completely block me from using OneCare.  I actually WANT to back up exe files and dlls - such as things that I have downloaded or purchased online, or indeed programs that I have written.  I have a lot of source code that needs backing up too, though I don't know if that's excluded or not.  Without it I'm afraid I will be unable to use OneCare anymore :-(

     

    Also, there is an additional issue at play here.  I know best what to backup on my PC.  Developers don't.  It is MY PC, and as an end user I should be given the ability to make the choice for myself.  Removing this decision from me simply makes me go somewhere else for my backup needs.  In this case, that also means AV, Spyware and Firewall.  It was great to have it all in a single nice interface, but its not really the end of the world if I can't.  I hear Symantec have really sharpened up Norton Internet Security.  That's not meant as a threat by the way, its just my expression of my requirements.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels like this either.

     

    Thursday, September 20, 2007 11:47 AM
  •  OneCareBear wrote:

    I'm afraid that in my case this affects so few files, most of which I could simply download again from the Internet, that I can't in good conscience argue for the need for the ability myself.

     

    Your statement recognizes the fact that there are some files that you cannot recover by re-downloading.  Does OC exclude setup EXE's as well?   I know I have around 50 setup EXE's of files I've purchased and downloaded that are no longer available online.  These I store in my Documents folder since most non-technical users would assume all the files they store there are backed up.  Imagine the surprise when trying to recover from a fatal system failure.

     

    Sure 50 files out of the thousands that get backed up are "so few", but I think it misses the point.  The fact really is, you need to be more techincal to understand that OC is not really backing up everything you may need.

    Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:35 PM
  • OneCare won't backup exe files in your documents folder as far as I know. So, yes, I agree with you. I *still* think that the ability to select folders and all contents should be provided. And, I think that a clear report of what is actually being backed up and what is excluded from selected folders should be available.

    -steve

     

    Thursday, September 20, 2007 5:47 PM
    Moderator
  • I think the following section found in Instant Help for OneCare v2 beta is quite clear myself.

     

    Backup file types

    The types of files that Windows Live OneCare version 2.0 can back up has changed since version 1.6. OneCare won't back up any system files that are located in the Windows folder or the Program Files folder. In addition, version 2.0 can no longer back up the following file types:

    • BAK
    • COM
    • DLL
    • DRV
    • EXE
    • ICO
    • SYS
    • TMP

    OneCare can back up the following file types:

     Outlook and Outlook Express files
     Financial files
     Music files
     Photos
     Document files
     Other files
     Movie files
     Internet Explorer favorites
     Recorded TV programs

    Note

    If you want to exclude some of the categories that are listed here, you can create your own backup plan. For more information, see Create a backup plan.

     

    The reasoning behind not allowing the backup of executable files is quite sound, including the fact that most software specifically states that multiple copies of the associated installation files should NOT be created, except possibly one copy as a 'backup'. The fact that these files already exist on the hard disk means this single copy already exists, so making another copy would be breaking the letter, if not the spirit of these common EULA requirements.

     

    It's also quite clear that some technical users will never understand that this program wasn't built for them, but rather for the non-technical users who will become confused if they are allowed to back up programs they can't properly restore. The potential exists that some may still believe programs are backed up regardless of the fact that both the Help indicates otherwise and there is no indication they are being backed up in the list of files, however nothing within OneCare itself is now helping to reinforce this idea. In like fashion, adding a list of exactly which files have been excluded would be confusing, since this could too easily be mis-interpreted as inclusion, so not displaying them at all makes more sense.

     

    I (and I'm sure Microsoft) fully understand there are exceptions such as those producing their own programs or wanting to backup installation files. However, this isn't what OneCare was designed to do and it won't fit the profile of the intended target audience no matter how someone tries to explain it. The only true solution I can see to this and many other 'Advanced' feature requests by generally more technical users is an entirely different product family, just like the ForeFront Security product exists for medium to large enterprise business networks.

     

    The product niche that I'm describing ranges from technical users with one or more systems to small businesses with simpler needs, including a lack of an Active Directory based network. However, this market is so varied and difficult to please (just look at your own comments) that I can fully understand why Microsoft may not be interested in it and in fact would be quite willing to leave it to the other antimalware vendors who've been serving it all along. The fact that significant numbers of these technical users would prefer OneCare simply shows how badly these other vendors have been serving this market and also possibly how well OneCare is being accepted even with its rather rigid definition of features.

     

    Since OneCare was initially assumed to have a target audience of roughly 70% of the entire potential antimalware customer base, this obviously implies that 30% were assumed to not be interested in the product. I'm actually surprised at the small number of complaints, though it may be that most of these technical users never even consider or at least immediately discount OneCare when they learn of its specifications and intended audience.

     

    OneCareBear

    Friday, September 21, 2007 4:13 AM
    Moderator
  • How long after the release of 2.0 will 1.0 continue to be supported?

    Friday, September 21, 2007 7:48 AM
  • You're right regarding the Help File information, OneCareBear. What I meant by a report was to have an option in OneCare to scan your system after you've set the backup options and produce a concise report of what is going to be backed up. It may be overkill, but I see it as an index of your backup. This way a user can see that file types they expected to be included were not backed up. If a user has added a folder to the backup locations that contains files not backed up, then a section of the report could show those files, to.

     

    In general, I agree with your assessment of why backup was changed in this manner and what the initial design of backup was meant to provide for the average user.

     

    I think the reason that there aren't more complaints is that many of those that would complain have another backup strategy in place that they prefer to use. As long as they can disable backup in OneCare, they are satisfied. :-) Count me in this group. :-)

     

    -steve

     

    Friday, September 21, 2007 4:29 PM
    Moderator
  •  DaveWhite.Net wrote:

    How long after the release of 2.0 will 1.0 continue to be supported?

    Since OneCare is a subscription based product, all subscribers will be updated to 2.0 when it is released. If you attempt to install 1.x after the release of 2.0, the installer will pull the 2.x bits down and install the latest. If your system is not updating to 2.x, and you are a subscriber, you are still supported, but the issue then would be to get your system updated. If you are a trial user of 1.x at the time that 2.0 is released, you will also be updated to 2.0 and email support is still valid during the trial period while you are still on 1.x, even after the 2.0 release if you have not been udpated.

    Hope that was clear.

    -steve

    Friday, September 21, 2007 4:33 PM
    Moderator
  •  Stephen Boots wrote:

    < SNIP >

     

    I think the reason that there aren't more complaints is that many of those that would complain have another backup strategy in place that they prefer to use. As long as they can disable backup in OneCare, they are satisfied. :-) Count me in this group. :-)

     

    -steve

     

    This is why I think that a completely separate version of protection suite is the only real solution to those wanting advanced features. This would allow both the potential ability to enable/disable any portion of the protection the user wished and also the addition of 'expert' configuration options.

     

    Since neither of these can really be done in the OneCare suite itself, there will always be someone coming here asking for them. If Microsoft has any interest in this other market at all, allowing modular control alone would go a long way towards supplying what's wanted, since then the AV/AS or other portions could be mixed and matched with other best of breed modules.

     

    I'm not really sure this could succeed though, since the most important modules of AntiVirus, AntiSpyware and Firewall are really designed to work together and currently require .NET 2.0 and other support to operate.

     

    OneCareBear

     

    Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:42 AM
    Moderator
  • Well this thread has convinced me of one thing and that is OC is not for me and the design philosophy guarantees it never will be.  No need to renew my subscription in a few months...

     

    Regards

     

    Saturday, September 22, 2007 5:50 PM
  • Yea, some people keep making excuses for WLOC team making these dumb decisions.

     

    It boils down to this. If you are a computer illiterate who can't even setup the backup portion, then WLOC is for you. If you are even a little more advanced than that, then other programs are for you. If you want ot backup your data, then don't bother with WLOC. The team has made the mistake of being too much of Daddy to make this program worth even bothering with when it comes to the backup portion. They made the mistake of thinking they know more than you on what you should be backing up or what you want to backup. They think it's their data, therefore you have no right to want to backup what you want, where you want.

     

    They also think that you should pay for online backup storage and then be told what you can or cannot backup there.

     

    Well, Symantec doesn't do this. They give you the options in programs like 360. You can select to backup what you want (and their backup method is a lot better). They also allow you to backup what you want to the online storage that you PAY for.

     

    I really think there is someone on the WLOC team that is trying to ruin WLOC and succeeding.

     

    Monday, September 24, 2007 5:06 PM
  • Scortch2,

     

    It's almost laughable how frustrated you seem to have gotten yourself about a product that was never intended to be of interest to you in the first place. If you don't like it you could have determined this in the first week of a 90 day free trial, so I still don't see why you're wasting your time.

     

    As I've stated before, a product that was targeted at the middle to lower end of the technical knowledge range with an estimated market of 70% will by its very nature exclude the other 30%, primarily those who are more technically inclined. So where's the surprise?

     

    As for myself, I get enough of the patching and other security management in my day job, so it's nice to come home to a computer that just takes care of itself. It took very little adjustment on my part to make OneCare work in an entirely effective manner for myself, I simply had to think like a normal user and not a techie. If you tell yourself that you can't work with anything other than what you're used to, you'll never manage to see how easily most things can be done with such a simple program.

     

    To this point I've still only heard one person (there may now be a second, but they haven't responded so I can't be certain) who was actually unable to backup something they wanted. All the rest keep complaining that they must have the ability to 'Include' files and folders, but they have yet to specify a single file they can't back up using the new technique. Of course such files do exist, but until a number of users complain about these in a specific manner, no one has any reason to listen.

     

    I'm not saying those with such a situation don't have a good point, but only one has actually bothered to make their point in a clear way. Unlike Steve, I completely disagree that the 'Include' ability is necessary, it's simply a crutch. The real issue is whether there are file types that users are now unable to back up that significant numbers of users care about. To this point it simply doesn't appear that these exist, since only one person has even made a passing reference to them.

     

    OneCareBear

    Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:34 AM
    Moderator
  •  OneCareBear wrote:

    Unlike Steve, I completely disagree that the 'Include' ability is necessary, it's simply a crutch.

    I guess I should clarify, OneCareBear. My reason for thinking that the include option should remain the way it was, is that it is a reduction in functionality from 1.x. Had it always existed the way it performs in 2.0, I would not champion for the feature. I'm happy that backup is optional in OneCare as it is too limited for my needs. However, in the current form - with "include" working exactly as it does now - it is a great solution for the average user. It is simple. It backs up data. It backs up the common file types for the typical user. The backup team is interested in file types that they overlooked and will likely add ones that are reported to them.

    SInce the feature to add entire folders regardless of content to the backup list was there in 1.x, removing it in 2.x is a problem in my opinion, but I'll get over it.  Seriously, I don't use OneCare backup. I image my main laptop twice weekly and currently use Windows Home Server to backup most of my computers daily. I use SyncToy to copy data between multiple PCs so that a failure on one allows access to the data instantly on another.

     

    -steve

    Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:35 PM
    Moderator
  • Yea, I am upset over them taking what could have been an awesome program and ruining it. They dumbed down the program even more than it was. They REMOVED features. The backup section might as well be removed as it's *** now. They seriously seem to be trying to run off customers with their actions. They don't care about the customers needs.

     

    I think you have your numbers backwards. WLOC 2.0 is designed for more like 20% of the people, the ones that can barely turn on a computer and get done what they need to do. The backup feature is useless, thus causing more people to move to something else. If you are in that category and like 2.0 backup, then great. It won't help the rest of the people that need more than an automated piece of junk.

     

    This move will not gain them any customers but, they will loose customers they already have.

     

    I just wonder who on the team has worked so hard to ruin such a nice program and one that had so much potential?

     

    When you do an upgrade to a program, you are supposed to make it better and add features. Leave it to Microsoft to actually make a program worst and remove features.

     

    As far as the number of people complaining of not being able to back something up. Is every single WLOC user using beta 2.0? I didn't think so. How many of those are even trying the backup section?

     

    You won't know what kind of impact it's going to have until every single person is upgraded to 2.0. I can guarantee you this though, there will be people leaving for something better, at the rate this program is going downhill. I have already had customers that depend on the backup section say they will move to Norton 360 or some other program that has a full featured backup program, when their subscription runs out.

    Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:12 PM
  • Thanks for the comments, Scortch2. As I said, the fact that a function was removed is what bothers me about it. I will agree with OneCareBear, though, that most people using OneCare and using the backup functionality will be fine with the change. Yes, the more technical users are more vocal and come here to discuss the product and will try the beta, but we don't represent the average user. I'm sorry that there are people who consider this a critical change in OneCare. As I've stated, I've never considered backup in OneCare to fit my needs. However, even in its present form in 2.0, it will indeed cover the basic needs of the average users. Consider this - the typical home user does not backup anything. When the PC crashes due to a hard drive failure, everything is lost. With OneCare, they are prompted to perform a backup by default shortly after installation. Unless they specifically disable the backup feature, they will be protected by the default backup settings in that it will backup documents, pictures, music, etc. that are stored in the common locations.

    -steve

    Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:18 PM
    Moderator
  • Norton 360 also prompts them to setup their backup, as default after installation. It however allows them complete control and is full featured. Onecare will not provide the average user with any more protection, as most people do not even have any form of backup, except maybe the CD/DVD writer that comes with the drive and they are no more inclined to use it than they would otherwise.

     

    I'm not so sure people will be fine with the change when they no longer have the ability to tell it to backup what they want, but instead it backs up what the developers want.

     

    That's the whole point, WLOC could have probably fit your needs (or at least more than it does now), had the team not ruined it by going backwards.

     

    Any steps backward in a program, is a critical change.

     

    Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:25 PM
  • Scortch2,

     

    You still have not identified a single file that you can't backup, so I have to assume there really aren't any. Until you identify some of the file(s) that you are unable to backup, you've done nothing to prove your point.

     

    Again, the Inclusion dialog isn't the real problem here, since even if this were added back it still wouldn't allow the backup of certain file types. You're so focused on your rant that you won't even try to discuss what might actually solve the problem and still work for less skilled users. The 'I want what I want' argument isn't going to work here.

     

    What you totally misunderstand about OneCare is that everything about it's design is based on criteria that were described by Bill Gates in various speaking and other press engagements over three years ago, the OneCare Team is simply following the original template laid out at that time.

     

    Steve,

     

    I agree it's not best to remove functionality after it's been released, but I suspect there is good reason. Leaving the mistakes of the past simply because they're 'features' is what the other programs have done, if they truly are causing users problems the only sensible thing is to remove them. The only thing I really feel is missing here is a clear statement of the reasoning by those responsible for the Backup portion of OneCare.

     

    We do know from issues posted in the past that some users have been confused into believing that OneCare could backup programs, which was never intended. The changed criteria quite clearly removes this possibility, so even though the change may be painful, the backup performs exactly as was originally intended, as a data only backup.

     

    The biggest issue I see personally isn't this technical change, it's that the marketing of OneCare has a disconnect with the actual product. As with any product, I'm sure the OneCare marketing group has sales targets to meet and doesn't want to harm their potential sales of the product. Unfortunately, this leads to the issue that the intent behind the actual product isn't made completely clear, so some technically minded individuals assume it's designed to compete directly with other commercial products they're accustomed to. This is obviously incorrect since OneCare is actually designed to solve the real problems that non-technical users have always had with these other bloated and complex programs.

     

    As with other technical users, Scortch2 is really mad that he invested time in a program that's moving in a direction he doesn't understand. I find it interesting that this has been the case all along for the other 70% of non-technical users that OneCare is actually intended to serve.

     

    OneCareBear

    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:31 AM
    Moderator
  • Insisting that leaving in the functionality of people being able to choose what THEY want to backup is wrong, is irresponsible.

     

    Your rant on protecting people from themselves is offensive to the users of the program.

     

    There has already been a discussion on what can't be backed up. You know exactly what is left out. I have already pointed out things I can't backup also.

     

    You are so insistent on saying that Microsoft is always right and nothing they do is bad or wrong, just shows that you do not see the bigger picture here and only concentrating on what you want from the program and that is something that is so simple, that it's unusable by the majority of the people.

     

    The lack of being able to choose what WE want to backup is EXACTLY the problem here. Having the team determine what we should or should not backup is irresponsible. That's what I am upset about. The team removing abilities and then saying they know better what we should be backing up. That they know what data of OUR'S is more important. The same attitude you applaud and agree with.

     

    What you totally misunderstand is that we should have the right to choose what WE want to backup, not the dev team. People have paid for a program that has that feature now, but will be taken away from them when WLOC goes to 2.0. That's what I am upset about, along with the fact that I now have to tell my customers that if they want that feature, they now have to go with something else, even though I recommended the program to them and they spent money on it and now features they depend on will be removed, thus making them spend yet more money on a program that does work properly. Will Microsoft offer them a refund since the program they already paid for, no longer provides the features they have already? I guess that's what I get for recommending Microsoft products. My own fault.

     

    You just can't see the bigger picture here. You are too insistent that the dev team does no wrong, that you won't see what we are saying.

     

    You always say well, there must be good reason. There is no reason in the world for making a program worst than it is now. There is no reason on the world for not giving people the ability to backup what THEY want to backup. If they want to backup .exe files, the team has no right to say well, you can't because we know better than you and so we won't allow it.

     

    No, at this point, Onecare will never compete with the real competition out there. They can't compete when they go around removing features and crippling their own program. Are they that scared that Symantec and other program will sue them? It will be hard to compete when you screw over customers that have paid for a program by removing key features.

     

    I know it's hard for you to see this from a user's perspective. Their reasoning is flawed, plain and simple. They have and do make mistakes, regardless of how much of a pedestal they are placed on.

    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:06 AM
  •  Scortch2 wrote:

    Insisting that leaving in the functionality of people being able to choose what THEY want to backup is wrong, is irresponsible.

    WLOC backup is defined as a data files only backup, always had been. There were loopholes to this in the original design which has now been fixed.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    Your rant on protecting people from themselves is offensive to the users of the program.

    No, that's exectly how and in fact why OneCare even exists, otherwise Microsoft would have left antimalware to the existing program vendors, but they've never served those who don't understand technical issues and have consistently proven that they never will, so Microsoft stepped in to fill this huge niche.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    There has already been a discussion on what can't be backed up. You know exactly what is left out. I have already pointed out things I can't backup also.

    If you've stated specific files or types that you can't back up and require then please show me the post. I just looked through this entire thread and find no mention.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    You are so insistent on saying that Microsoft is always right and nothing they do is bad or wrong, just shows that you do not see the bigger picture here and only concentrating on what you want from the program and that is something that is so simple, that it's unusable by the majority of the people.

    No, they were obviously wrong to have the 'Include' dialog in the program, since they've taken the difficult step of removing it. Other than yourself and a couple others who specifically need to backup executable files (programmers), virtually no one else has complained. Since none of those complaining were ever a target customer, this isn't at all surprising.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    The lack of being able to choose what WE want to backup is EXACTLY the problem here. Having the team determine what we should or should not backup is irresponsible. That's what I am upset about. The team removing abilities and then saying they know better what we should be backing up. That they know what data of OUR'S is more important. The same attitude you applaud and agree with.

    Exactly why you aren't a target customer of OneCare, since you already have and understand fully a backup strategy. OneCare was designed for those who don't and require help in formulating a simple strategy that can protect their most valuable data files. It's not designed to back up programs or the OS, since these users will involve someone else in the recovery of the overall computer itself.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    What you totally misunderstand is that we should have the right to choose what WE want to backup, not the dev team. People have paid for a program that has that feature now, but will be taken away from them when WLOC goes to 2.0. That's what I am upset about, along with the fact that I now have to tell my customers that if they want that feature, they now have to go with something else, even though I recommended the program to them and they spent money on it and now features they depend on will be removed, thus making them spend yet more money on a program that does work properly. Will Microsoft offer them a refund since the program they already paid for, no longer provides the features they have already? I guess that's what I get for recommending Microsoft products. My own fault.

    Yes you do, and in your own case you really need a different product as OneCare has quite obviously never been the correct suite for you, though you insist on blaming it for not changing to your liking. Others have their own rights and needs, so what they do should be based on what works best for them. If thousands of other users also state that backup needs to change in some way it will, but not for one or two technical users.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    You just can't see the bigger picture here. You are too insistent that the dev team does no wrong, that you won't see what we are saying.

     

    You always say well, there must be good reason. There is no reason in the world for making a program worst than it is now. There is no reason on the world for not giving people the ability to backup what THEY want to backup. If they want to backup .exe files, the team has no right to say well, you can't because we know better than you and so we won't allow it.

    Your version of the truth. In actuallity you just can't stand that OneCare isn't going in the direction you wish. I actually preferred that I could backup executables myself, but I personally care more about the protection of the masses than my own convenience.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    No, at this point, Onecare will never compete with the real competition out there. They can't compete when they go around removing features and crippling their own program. Are they that scared that Symantec and other program will sue them? It will be hard to compete when you screw over customers that have paid for a program by removing key features.

    It isn't trying to, which is what's confusing you. If the other programs are doing such a great job then why haven't they solved the problem years ago? OneCare was created to solve the real problems of user apathy and confusion, while the other programs are techie toys for geeks. This isn't competition, it's an entirely different game. This is what so confuses the techie community, since it doesn't fit the mold they're used to and doesn't try to serve them specifically, which makes them angry.

     

     Scortch2 wrote:

    I know it's hard for you to see this from a user's perspective. Their reasoning is flawed, plain and simple. They have and do make mistakes, regardless of how much of a pedestal they are placed on.

    What user, you? Get it through your head, OneCare wasn't designed for you. It's designed for those who just want to install a program and forget it. It should tell them what to do and when and even how if necessary. This is the largest number of users, though you can play the numbers game forever since no one really knows the exact percentage, but Microsoft believes it's close to 70%. That doesn't mean they'll get all 70% to buy OneCare, it's simply a potential market.

     

    OneCareBear

    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:28 AM
    Moderator
  • Well, you have your opinion and I have mine. Too bad you can't see past the love of the dev team to see that they have made a huge mistake.

     

    I guess we will see when they force everyone to using 2.0 and people start missing features they are using and they complain or switch.

     

    I hope Microsoft offers a refund to those that have already paid their subscriptions when 2.0 is forced on them and they loose functionality and get a program that has moved backwards.

     

    Anyway, we aren't going to change each other's mind no matter how much we debate it. I just hope the dev team reads this and understands what we are trying to tell you and hopefully they will see the light.

    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:57 PM
  • Hmm, so I went to setup my backup today and am running into the same issue.  For me, it would be straightforward to have a *.* rule in a treeview and then uncheck any directory or file I didn't want to have backed up.  I'm an advanced user, that kind of UI makes sense to me, though I understand the desire to make it simple for morts as well...

    What's bewildering to me is that I am somewhat unsure what is being backed up and what is not.  The best guess I can make is to scroll through the "files to be backed up" list, however, it gives me no context as to what is not being backed up; whereas, with a simple nested treeview I could easily see that "this file is checked and will be backed up" and "this file is unchecked and will not be backed up".  SUPER SCARY.

    Furthermore, the edict that no files under Windows and Program Files will be backed up, what the frak.  How many applications still store their user data files under Program Files?  I can think of two such applications on my machine that I would be super unhappy if I lost their data.

    Backup has been nerfed to the point that it's at best not useful to me and at worst scary.

    For now I'll just use the Vista SyncToy power toy, it does what I want, without the confusion or limitations, and the price is right.
    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:01 PM
  • Yep, all that is needed is a simple interface that allows a tree view with the ability to choose any folder.

     

    They will never be able to think of everything and people will be loosing data with this backwards setup.

     

    That's why I am suggesting to all my customers now that when 2 comes out, they switch to Norton 360. It's much better than what 2.0 has turned out to be.

     

    Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:57 PM
  •  

    Hey Scortch2, I apperciate your enthuiasm for Norton 360 that you have posted through out this forum, however, I have used Norton for years and have been very dissatisfied with them.  Under XP I used their suite of programs for prethection.  It made my coumputer (which was quite robust) start up slow as Norton ran through it's start up.  They did not at first support Vista.  In the end I found them to be a bit over the top when it came to protection.  For me, using a computer is not ALL about protection (whcih seems to be Nortons appraoch).  It is about the ease of doing what I want.  I want my protection software to leave me alone and do its thing so I can do mine, 

     

    In the end this is why I went thin Onecare.  I really like the ease of use of OneCare.  It leaves me alone and does a great job protecting me.  I love it's one stop, simple approach to computer protection.  I like that it handles it all, virus, firewall, back up.  These are the tings that end users need whether they know it or not.  OneCare does a good job of doing all three.   

     

    My one issue with OneCare 2.0 is the back up.  I have all kind of stuff in my "Download" file that I spent the time finding and donwloading (and at times paying for) that did not get back up.  I have lots of EXE files for everything from programs for my PDA, drivers for my motherboard (printers, Trackir, etc), and programs like PowerDVD and others.  I placed all of these in the Downloads folder so I can take them with me when ever I rebuild my PC, or have a problem.  OneCare's back up is so simple under 1.0 and allowed me to include this one folder.  I had all my downloads.  Under 2.0 (which I switched to for it's support to Vista 64BIt) I lost all my downloaded program EXE files. 

     

    Here is a suggestion.  It seems reasonalbe to me, and quite simple to COMPLETELY back up the user folders that Windows automatically creates for it's users (Documents, Pictures, Music, DOWNLOADS, Favorites, Links, ...you get the idea).  These are folders that Microsoft makes for users to put their stuff in.  How does the stuff get there?  The user has to put it there.  They have to do this whether they are Techies or simple folk.  It seems safe to assume that if the USER put it there they want it there.  Why not keep Onecare simple like it is now, but COMPLETELY back up ALL FILES in ALL "USER" foldres created under VISTA or XP.  That way non-tech people do not have to know anything about what their computer is doing and Tech people at least know that no matter what kind of files they put into their user folders it will be there when the restore.  It just makes sense to me.  To me this is enough of a compromise to keep some of us techies happy enough to use OneCare 2.0.

     

    Monday, October 1, 2007 8:50 PM
  • I'm an old guy, not a computer savy advanced user. I want very much to be able to return to the older version of backup.

     

    As Scortch2 mentioned, a simple tree view allowing selections of any folder. Maybe put it under an "Advanced" tab or button, but at least put the option there.

     

    Making things "Simple" and making things "dumbed down" are two entirely different approaches... Simple is good! Dumbed down is insulting to just about anyone.

     

    And I gotta say, the moderator that tells customers that a product is not for them, is not someone I'd want to ask help from, and isn't that part of what these forums are here for?

     

    I doubt any corporate owner would be happy hearing he had people telling customers to go elsewhere. Just my 2cents.

     

     

    Monday, October 1, 2007 10:55 PM
  • Headski, see my reply to the your message in the other topic you posted the same response.

     

    http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2208202&SiteID=2

     

    Mjrdude, exactly. To me it's insulting that they feel like they have to dumb down a program and then tell people that are more advanced that have already paid for another year's subscription, to go somewhere else if they want something for more advanced users.

     

    Advanced users paid thier money too. They have a right to a working program that isn't dumbed down (i.e. features removed).

    Tuesday, October 2, 2007 4:36 AM
  • Well, I have heard about this issue throughout the OneCare 2 beta but I hadn't formed an opinion on issue until now, when I actually went through and used the backup and restore functionality to restore files on a replacement hard drive (my previous hard drive had some issues). In a sense, I "relied" on OneCare to restore my files.

     

    When I was choosing which categories of files to backup, I figured that I already had a copy of all the movies in my Videos folder on DVD anyway, and that they would cause the backup size to balloon enormously (by 50 GB at the very least) which would not work very well for a DVD-based backup, so I chose not to pick the videos category.

     

    I forgot that "videos" didn't just mean all the movies in my Videos folder, it also meant all the videos that I had filmed with my digital camera -- these videos were transfered to my Pictures folder with the rest of my pictures.

     

    I did want to back up my pictures, and accordingly I did choose the pictures category. But, of course, when it came time to restore my pictures, I was missing all those self-made videos that used to be in my Pictures folder.

     

    So, that was a pretty critical problem with the backup/restore functionality for me.

     

    Luckily, as any good beta tester should have done, I had a backup somewhere else where I could restore those missing videos. Nevertheless, it was a pretty unnerving situation to be in.

     

    You might think that perhaps I should have went and checked the list of files in each category, so I would have realised earlier that my self-made videos weren't being backed up. I'm not sure how many "average users" are going to like wading through the big long lists that OneCare provides to do such a check. Even if I did, what was I supposed to do? Tell OneCare to backup the videos category, and exclude all the videos in my Videos folder? That seems a bit backwards to me, and makes the backup process harder, not easier.

     

    If I had the ability to back up folders, I certainly would have chosen to backup up everything under my user folder (i.e. everything in My Documents and below in XP) and then I think the folder exclusion thing seems more natural there. The thing with folder-based backups is that you can actually see that files you put in a particular folder are being backed up. With a purely file type backup system, at least in the way that OneCare presents it, it is extrememly hard to tell if a particular file that you place in a folder is getting backed up.

     

    So, what I propose is that, if a user chooses to backup pictures, include everything in the Pictures folder. If they choose music, include everything in the Music folder (album art comes to mind as something that might be missed by a music-only backup)... Documents, include everything in the Documents folder (assuming that they're on Vista, otherwise maybe include everything in the My Documents folder except My Pictures, My Music, etc.) and so on.

     

    Perhaps that would be a good compromise.

     

    Jason.

    Saturday, October 6, 2007 5:48 AM
  • Forgive me if I'm jumping into this adversarial thread in the wrong place - I generally don't do forums, but I couldn't find the answer to my question anywhere else. As I scanned through the posts in this thread, it appears that this program won't let you backup files that are located in places other than the default "My Docs" "My Music" "My Pics" etc.

     

    HEY MICROSOFT!!!! I only use my C:\ drive for programs and store all my docs on other drives. If you must control the types of files we users backup, can you at least develop the next version so that it detects file types instead of file locations? It's obvious that you're already doing this to an extent since you found my "financial" files so I know you can find all the locations for .docs, .jpegs, etc. (It would make my day if I'm wrong about this and someone out there could tell my how to include my docs located outside the MS default folder locations). Thanks!

    Friday, May 30, 2008 2:31 PM
  •  ccvp wrote:

    Forgive me if I'm jumping into this adversarial thread in the wrong place - I generally don't do forums, but I couldn't find the answer to my question anywhere else. As I scanned through the posts in this thread, it appears that this program won't let you backup files that are located in places other than the default "My Docs" "My Music" "My Pics" etc.

     

    HEY MICROSOFT!!!! I only use my C:\ drive for programs and store all my docs on other drives. If you must control the types of files we users backup, can you at least develop the next version so that it detects file types instead of file locations? It's obvious that you're already doing this to an extent since you found my "financial" files so I know you can find all the locations for .docs, .jpegs, etc. (It would make my day if I'm wrong about this and someone out there could tell my how to include my docs located outside the MS default folder locations). Thanks!

     

    That is incorrect.

     

    You can backup files from all internal hard drives on your PC, based on file type, *except* those located in \Program Files or \Windows.

    There are also certain file types that are excluded from backup and cannot be backed up.

     

    Run the backup configuration, select your file types for "What" and review what is being included after the PC is scanned.

     

    -steve

    Friday, May 30, 2008 3:33 PM
    Moderator