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I've lost 134,958 recognition points RRS feed

  • Question

  • Something nasty happened this weekend.  I'm back to one "medal" and 67 recognition points.  Two years of hard work wiped out in an instant.  I'm not happy.
    Hans Passant.
    Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:16 PM

Answers

  • We're working to get some backups restored so we can track down when the issue occurred. We're also creating a script that can be run to recalculate points though we'd like to figure out what happened prior to running it. As of right now we've gone through most of the obvious paths and have a few ideas but nothing is jumping out as definitive just yet.

    On the plus side, you're back over 100 points now Hans ;)

    We'll get you, and everyone else affected, fixed up soon.

    Rob J, Forums Dev
    • Marked as answer by nobugz Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:46 PM
    Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:20 AM

All replies

  • In fact you had negative points quite recently. Looks like a wrap-around bug somewhere.
    Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:35 PM
  • We'll look into this first thing Monday. I will keep this thread posted as we figure out what the issue was and when we can get the fix in place. We always have enough info in the db to recalculate points so we'll be able to get anyone affected back to their proper values.
    Rob J, Forums Dev
    Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:32 PM
  • Hi Hanz-

    A bug has been logged for the product team to investigate and between Rob or myself, we'll keep you posted.

    You metioned it happened this weekend?  Do you happen to remember when you noticed you had all of your recognition points and medals by chance?  That may help track down what may have happened.

    Thanks-
    Alicia
    Program Manager, Server and Tools Online Engineering Live Services Team
    Monday, June 23, 2008 6:31 AM
  • I posted right after I found out.  I can't be certain when it occurred but it happened some time after June 19.  But I'd guess Saturday morning.  I'm not the only user affected by this.  Click on Browse Users, click on the Answers column header twice (bug there).  Note how the Points column poorly correlates to Answers for Marco Zhou, Feng Chen, LesterLobo, John Oliver.  Some users with unusually low point totals were active before the recognition point system was introduced.  Which makes recovering data from dbase records a bit iffy.
    Hans Passant.
    Monday, June 23, 2008 7:22 AM
  • nobugz said:

    I posted right after I found out.  I can't be certain when it occurred but it happened some time after June 19.  But I'd guess Saturday morning.  I'm not the only user affected by this.  Click on Browse Users, click on the Answers column header twice (bug there).  Note how the Points column poorly correlates to Answers for Marco Zhou, Feng Chen, LesterLobo, John Oliver.  Some users with unusually low point totals were active before the recognition point system was introduced.  Which makes recovering data from dbase records a bit iffy.


    Hans Passant.



    Thanks Hans.  I'll add this info the bug.

    On this though:   "Click on Browse Users, click on the Answers column header twice (bug there)"---I can't repro this.  I only have to click once.  It takes about a second to refresh but I only have to click once.  What browser are you using?

    Alicia
    Program Manager, Server and Tools Online Engineering Live Services Team
    Monday, June 23, 2008 7:26 AM
  • The first click sorts low-to-high, the second click sorts high-to-low.  IE does the same thing.  Low-to-high is pointless.  Well, works to find the two users with negative points.
    Hans Passant.
    Monday, June 23, 2008 7:36 AM
  • Thanks Hans-

    I'll bring this up to the team and see what they have to say about sorting.  I'll follow up to the thread after I have an answer  :)

    Alicia


    Program Manager, Server and Tools Online Engineering Live Services Team
    Monday, June 23, 2008 7:41 AM
  • Whammo, another 450 odd points gone this morning.  I'm now down to zippo, nada, nothing, zero points.  I'd consider going negative a distinct possibility, trend wise.
    Hans Passant.
    Monday, June 23, 2008 12:11 PM
  • The very same thing happened with me too. I've reported it here: Points gone
    Lost about 2200 points.

    MCTS, CodeProject MVP 2008
    Monday, June 23, 2008 1:24 PM
  • I'm not sure here on the new forums so excuse and forgive if I've stated something incorrect.

    But I noticed a few days ago, the Top Answerers box displayed on the right kept resorting the top answerers (not by rank, random order). And yes my browser lagged as it kept refreshing constantly - I thought this feature might have been a purpose-built function but now that I read there may have been data corruption in the database I think twice.

    Is that box meant to randomly sort those answerers every 2 - 3 seconds (as I experienced) or is it meant to display the answerers by rank?

    Right now, at present, the box seems fine. I don't see it refreshing as much as it did before.

    Just my 2 cents, which may .. in fact be worth less.

    Thanks.
    Alvin K.N. Tan
    Monday, June 23, 2008 1:29 PM
  • Oh and when I watch it refresh, everyone gets full medals for a split second and they disappear.

    And yes nobugz I see you with the full medals. I could take a screenshot of this, but its rather fast and its getting late :D.

    Just to let you know.
    Monday, June 23, 2008 1:34 PM
  • A screenshot sounds pretty good by now.  I could make it my avatar.
    Hans Passant.
    Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:19 AM
  • We're working to get some backups restored so we can track down when the issue occurred. We're also creating a script that can be run to recalculate points though we'd like to figure out what happened prior to running it. As of right now we've gone through most of the obvious paths and have a few ideas but nothing is jumping out as definitive just yet.

    On the plus side, you're back over 100 points now Hans ;)

    We'll get you, and everyone else affected, fixed up soon.

    Rob J, Forums Dev
    • Marked as answer by nobugz Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:46 PM
    Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:20 AM
  • Yeah NoBugs is the number one answerer.  We need to get his stuff working soon ;)


    Abdel.Raheim
    Tuesday, June 24, 2008 5:23 PM
  • Back to zero again this morning.  The timing seems hardly coincidental.  A whole week gone without diagnosis or resolution, what's the priority of this bug?  
    Hans Passant.
    Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:20 PM
  • Hans,

    This is the highest priority item in our S3 release. We've been working on a modification to the way we update points and have a script prepared to restore points to their proper values when that goes live.  S2 (which has a few features, bug fixes and visual enhancements) should be live in the next few days. We're wrapping up development on S3 and handing off to test on Monday and we'll get it out as soon as we can.
    Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:22 PM
  • I sure hope this gets fixed soon. 
    Thomas Lee - MVP
    Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:35 PM
  • I hope so too.
    MCTS, CodeProject MVP 2008
    Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:28 PM
  • I too hope that this gets fixed. Last month, with a partially migrated forum, has been imho a mess.
    Tim Van Wassenhove - Please remember to mark the replies as answers if they help.
    Monday, June 30, 2008 11:24 AM
  • Hans,

    Maybe it's like Airline Mileage Program points. If you don't use them, you lose them...

    Have you tried to 'cash in' your points lately.
    After all, if you can't cash them in, what's the point.

    gd&r

    Arnie
    You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person...

    p.s., maybe the 'system' is trying to level the playing field and give the rest of us a change to catch up...
    (But we all know it wouldn't be for long before you eclipsed us again...
    Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:04 AM
  • Oh, I would like to cash them in.  When a customer calls Microsoft CSS, they get charged, what, $125?  That's what it was the last time I called, 7 years ago.  I answer over 5000 questions in a year.  Hmm, that 5000 x $125 = $625,000.  I could live off that.  Heck, I'd kick 75% back towards the cost of creating a forums web site from scratch.

    But all I've got to show for this are these stupid recognition points.  They are not even property, you can't go to the police and complain "somebody stole my points".  MSDN treats it much the same, they won't consider running a dbase update query to fix the damage.  Ten minutes of work?

    To try to find a use for something without value, I decided to start the "Nobugz on MSDN fund".  I donate all 140,000 recognition points to a pool from which the first 140 new answerers get 1000 points as soon as they've answered 100 questions.  MSDN: please provide a way for me to make these transfers manually, nothing automated please.





    Hans Passant.
    Wednesday, July 2, 2008 10:28 AM
  • Points should be good to go as of today. We are no longer +/- points, but are recalculating them each time to avoid race conditions and double-entries.
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:32 PM
  •  Version 3.4 seems to have wipe out some more points.  Mine nearly were cut nearly in half today.
    Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:56 PM
  • I saw it, thanks.  There'll be some smoke before the dust settles over this.


    Hans Passant.
    • Edited by nobugz Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:14 PM Got logged out
    Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:13 PM
  • Indeed, I have 70 answers, 255 posts, yet only 690 points? Just counting the answers alone, 70 * 10 = 700. How could I have less than 700 points? (And that's not counting posts).
    Friday, July 11, 2008 12:19 AM
  • One of us will look into it tomorrow. But it's not quite that straightforward, you don't get points for replying to/answering your own threads amongst other things. I did a quick scan of Scorpion007's and noticed at least one or two of those answers were to a thread that they started.


    Rob J, Forums Dev
    Friday, July 11, 2008 3:44 AM
  • nobugz, looks like you're back to your full medals again :D

    Yesterday I checked you were on 2 medals. So I'll "safely" assume there's been some fixing.

    Lets just hope it stays that way.

    Friday, July 11, 2008 3:59 AM
  • robjoh,

    Thanks.

    I did a quick scan of Scorpion007's and noticed at least one or two of those answers were to a thread that they started.

    Even so, I don't think I have more than two or three of such cases. Let's assume I even have 50 answers to other people, that's 500 points. Then counting say 200 posts, that's 200 * 2 = ~400 points. 500 + 400 = 900. Yet I have way less than that, and likely near ~65 or so answers to 3rd party threads.
    Friday, July 11, 2008 4:08 AM
  • As Rob said, it's not quite that straightforward. We'll need to update the help file to accurately explain the point system. I did a lot of work on the point system so I'll work with Rob tomorrow morning to a) make sure the current system looks to be right and b) spot check some users against those rules to make sure the points are updating correctly.

    PS - I also want to double-check the rules myself before I go quoting them ;)

    Matt
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    • Edited by mattfras1 Friday, July 11, 2008 6:34 AM add PS
    Friday, July 11, 2008 6:32 AM
  • OK. Here's the update. First, a quick clarification on how points should be calculated.

    You get points for a replies (not thread starts), helpful votes you votes you receive and posts you have marked as the answer. However, you only receive points on question threads that you didn't start.

    So, after writing my own queries to tally points (I used Scorpion007 as a test subject) I found that the new point caclulation proc wasn't returning the right numbers. As of last night's backup, Scorpion007 should have had 1131 points, but only had 724. The bug was that in trying to figure out if the poster had started the thread, we instead looked at the post that was being replied to (possibly a mistaken assumption that all posts reply to the root message of a thread). So, if you replied to your own post (but did not start the thread) you didn't get any points for that message.

    We have a fix that we're going to test and will likely have out sometime next week. Thanks for hanging in until then.

    Matt
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    • Proposed as answer by scorpion007 Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:24 AM
    Friday, July 11, 2008 6:51 PM
  • Good to hear you've found the cause. Thanks guys :)
    Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:24 AM
  • Hi All,
    Just 2 days back my Points were about 762 and i hve just got one more medal in my tally..and suddenly when checked yesterday my points are reduced to 511...i.e. almost 250 points less...How is this possible and wat will be done regarding this problem...

    I was told by Matt Fraser to post in this thread.

    Hope for a early and a valid reply..and even an early correction of the Points.


    Waiting for a Reply.


    Regards,
    Rushabh D. Vipani.
    Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:33 AM
  • Ruvi said:

    Hope for a early and a valid reply..and even an early correction of the Points.

    I explained it all 2 posts up... We found the cause and hope to get the fix out next week.

    Matt


    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:42 AM
  • And back to zero this morning.
    Hans Passant.
    Wednesday, July 16, 2008 4:10 PM
  • Hang in there... the scoring system is effective "off" (though I'm not sure how you got to 0) right now due to perf issues. When we kick it back on (hopefully this week) all points will be recalc'd and everything should be good.
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    • Proposed as answer by Thomas Lee Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:44 AM
    Wednesday, July 16, 2008 5:45 PM
  • Matt - thanks for the hard work resolving this issue. I'm sure all the high point scorers will be even happier when the scoring is working again.

    Can you clarify when 'next week' you're likely to roll the fix out? :-)

    tfl

    Thomas Lee
    Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:46 AM
  • Very awkward timing.  My MVP award is up for the yearly renewal.  I got an email from my runner late yesterday afternoon.  He's new at the job.  He was unconvinced that I was active at this forums site.  We're now looking for a competency that reflects my contributions to the Windows Forms General forum at the old web site.  Me losing the award would really bake the cake.  Please send an email to PJ Forgione to explain what is going on here.
    Hans Passant.
    Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:20 PM
  • Thomas Lee said:

    Can you clarify when 'next week' you're likely to roll the fix out? :-)


    Next week = this week. Looks like we're scheduled to roll it out today. :)

    nobugz said:

    Very awkward timing.  My MVP award is up for the yearly renewal.  I got an email from my runner late yesterday afternoon.  He's new at the job.  He was unconvinced that I was active at this forums site.  We're now looking for a competency that reflects my contributions to the Windows Forms General forum at the old web site.  Me losing the award would really bake the cake.  Please send an email to PJ Forgione to explain what is going on here.


    Hans Passant.



    Nobugz: I'll send an email right now.

    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:36 PM
  • We just rolled out the fix for points recalculation.  All of the points should be accurate now.
    Friday, July 18, 2008 12:49 AM
  • nobugz said:

    Very awkward timing.  My MVP award is up for the yearly renewal.  I got an email from my runner late yesterday afternoon.  He's new at the job.  He was unconvinced that I was active at this forums site.  We're now looking for a competency that reflects my contributions to the Windows Forms General forum at the old web site.  Me losing the award would really bake the cake.  Please send an email to PJ Forgione to explain what is going on here.


    Hans Passant.



    Mail has been sent and you were cc'd.

    Thanks-
    Alicia
    Program Manager, Server and Tools Online Engineering Live Services Team
    Friday, July 18, 2008 1:56 AM
  • ramthi said:

    We just rolled out the fix for points recalculation.  All of the points should be accurate now.


    Excellent :)
    Friday, July 18, 2008 2:01 AM
  • Well, then PJ has gotten at least 2 emails from us... ;)

    Yup, points are back!
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Friday, July 18, 2008 4:01 AM
  • HI Mattfras,

    My points are still not accurate, on 11 July it was 762 , its now showing 712 points plus the points i hve earned in the last 8 days after that are still pending.


    Awaiting a REPLY.


    Regards,
    Rushabh D. Vipani.
    Friday, July 18, 2008 12:27 PM
  • I'm still trying to figure out why there is a difference in points and posts between the new and old forums.  Sort of looks like the old has all of the points, while the new one has only points credited from the actual forums that have been moved to the new one.

    This is not a complaint but an observation.

    Mark the best replies as answers. "Fooling computers since 1971."
    Friday, July 18, 2008 1:13 PM
  • Yes.  The old forum site didn't deduct the points when the forums got moved.  At this site, we seem to only get credit for posts in the moved forums plus any new posts since the move.  New posts here don't add to the total at the old forum site.  I would assume we can't get our original total back to normal until the rest of the forums get moved.  Looks to me like that might be a while.
    Hans Passant.
    Friday, July 18, 2008 2:50 PM
  • nobugz said:

    Yes.  The old forum site didn't deduct the points when the forums got moved.  At this site, we seem to only get credit for posts in the moved forums plus any new posts since the move.  New posts here don't add to the total at the old forum site.  I would assume we can't get our original total back to normal until the rest of the forums get moved.  Looks to me like that might be a while.


    Hans Passant.



    Correct

    Ruvi said:

    HI Mattfras,

    My points are still not accurate, on 11 July it was 762 , its now showing 712 points plus the points i hve earned in the last 8 days after that are still pending.


    Awaiting a REPLY.


    Regards,
    Rushabh D. Vipani.

    There is no such thing as "points pending". Considering the flaws in the points system, I would guess that the July 11 figure wasn't accurate.

    As I explained on page 2 of this thread, the system for awarding points isn't quite as simple as explained in the help file. Points here will likely never EXACTLY match the points in the old system since our system is similar, but not exactly the same.

    Matt


    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Friday, July 18, 2008 3:21 PM
  • Matt: many thanks to you and the team for your efforts :)
    Document my code? Why do you think it's called "code"?
    Friday, July 18, 2008 3:35 PM
  • Is this really fixed? The points still don't match up.

    In the new forum system, I have 2662 points, 477 posts, and 177 answers.

    In the old system I have 4303 points, 677 posts, and I can't find the number of answers. Since I very rarely started threads (once or twice), I couldn't have possibly had 1500 or so points erroneously assigned.
    KodefuGuru.com - Life Student of the Kodefu Arts
    Sunday, August 3, 2008 8:53 PM
  • 177 x 10 + 477 x 2 = 2724.  Looks pretty close to me.  You don't get points here for threads that are still at the old site and didn't get moved yet.
    Hans Passant.
    Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:11 PM
  • What about the posts marked as helpful?
    KodefuGuru.com - Life Student of the Kodefu Arts
    Sunday, August 3, 2008 9:25 PM
  • Now I know why my medal (?) disappeard on me ... it's obviously not been corrected.
    After reading some more previous posts, I think this issue should be handled with a much higher degree of importance and priority. I started to doubt my decision to go for MVP. The "P" stands for professional so how are we to work with non-professional services and/or products ?


    Shems


    Information by Experience

    • Edited by Shems Monday, October 27, 2008 6:45 PM underestimated the issue
    Monday, October 27, 2008 6:33 PM
  • Shems said:

    Now I know why my medal (?) disappeard on me ... it's obviously not been corrected.
    After reading some more previous posts, I think this issue should be handled with a much higher degree of importance and priority. I started to doubt my decision to go for MVP. The "P" stands for professional so how are we to work with non-professional services and/or products ?


    Shems


    Information by Experience



    The issue described here happened several months ago. What are you comparing to say that a medal "dissappeared" on you. If you're comparing to the old forums platform, we still haven't migrated all forums over (and thus, their associated points) but should be doing so by the end of the year. Also note that the rules for points are slightly different on this platform than before, so eve after full migration your new score may be slightly lower than before, but it should be for everyone...

    Matt
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:38 PM
  •  Medal Test
    Monday, November 10, 2008 5:34 PM
  • nobugz said:

    Very awkward timing.  My MVP award is up for the yearly renewal.  I got an email from my runner late yesterday afternoon.  He's new at the job.  He was unconvinced that I was active at this forums site.  We're now looking for a competency that reflects my contributions to the Windows Forms General forum at the old web site.  Me losing the award would really bake the cake.  Please send an email to PJ Forgione to explain what is going on here.


    Hans Passant.




    I just got an email from my MVP lead that I was not qualified to be renewed here is my profile so I cannot understand I want Microsoft to explain to me how I did not qualify for renewal.

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/users/#page:1;searchexpression:Caddre



    1700 plus post still waiting to be migrated all posts are from May 2007


    http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3967156&SiteID=1




    Asp.net MVP, MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA
    • Edited by Caddre Monday, December 29, 2008 8:11 PM Added
    Monday, December 29, 2008 6:10 PM
  • Edit is not working again I still have 1700 plus posts to be migrated to the new site here all posts are from May 2007.  I need explanations why my posts almost 5000 with more than 50 percent correct that are closed more than 90 percent by Microsoft is not qualified for renewal.

    http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3967156&SiteID=1


    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA
    Monday, December 29, 2008 8:20 PM
  • Caddre said:

    Edit is not working again I still have 1700 plus posts to be migrated to the new site here all posts are from May 2007.  I need explanations why my posts almost 5000 with more than 50 percent correct that are closed more than 90 percent by Microsoft is not qualified for renewal.

    http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3967156&SiteID=1


    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA



    Only your MVP lead can explain to you why, but if you email me their name (my email address is just my username @microsoft.com), I can email them to be sure that they understand our current bug with imported forums. I don't know if this played into it or not...

    Thanks
    Matt
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Monday, December 29, 2008 9:36 PM
  • Thanks Matt I don't believe the migration bug is relevant to her decision but I will send you that email.


    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA
    Monday, December 29, 2008 9:44 PM
  • Hi Caddre,

    This is awful.  If you could post your MVP lead's email address, I'll do my best to change her mind.  Please use the moderator's forum for your post to keep the address private.

    Hans Passant.
    Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:26 AM
  • Caddre said:

    Thanks Matt I don't believe the migration bug is relevant to her decision but I will send you that email.


    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA



    Hi Caddre--

    You may also email me at learnmgr@microsoft.com as well with the information.  That is a mailbox that I monitor.

    Thanks-
    Alicia
    Program Manager, Server and Tools Online Engineering Live Services Team
    Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:02 AM
  • Thanks Alicia I will send you that email.
    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA
    Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:17 AM


  • nobugz said:

    Very awkward timing.  My MVP award is up for the yearly renewal.  I got an email from my runner late yesterday afternoon.  He's new at the job.  He was unconvinced that I was active at this forums site.  We're now looking for a competency that reflects my contributions to the Windows Forms General forum at the old web site.  Me losing the award would really bake the cake.  Please send an email to PJ Forgione to explain what is going on here.


    Hans Passant.



    It would be a shame for this to happen all over again only because of this buggy platform.
    Lucian Baciu, MCTS, http://studentclub.ro/lucians_weblog
    Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:27 PM
  • Hi Naicul,

    I don't think my problem is related to the forum bug I just added to this thread to bring Microsoft's policy of telling one section of the US they can work harder than 98 percent of the prevailing universe of MVPs and still not qualify. 


    That is cruel because if you tell someone they are not good enough long enough they will believe they are inferior then one race preferably one gender can do software.  I am saying it is a policy because last year the previous lead told me in November 2007 he will not norminate me but I was renewed and he is no longer with the MVP program now the current lead a female sent me the email I am not renewed.

    Thanks to Matt and Alicia but Microsoft in January will provide me who qualified and why.


     


    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA
    • Edited by Caddre Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:56 PM added
    Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:48 PM
  • The pesky problem with bad policies in a big company is Microsoft is rolling into 2009 with a policy in its books that says the in comming president's daughters can work harder than the pack in software and cannot succeed because of who they are because as their father so succintly puts it they are moths like me.

    women and minorities in hard engineering are temporary because there are a group of white men Microsoft moves from one category to the other every year.  what you do with a temporary is you look for reasons to remove every year.  I know that and I made sure Microsoft have none.

    Who is qualified?


    Happy new year.


    MCPD Web C#, MCTS TFS, MCITP BI and DBA
    Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:37 PM