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Where did my freespace go?? RRS feed

  • Question

  • Ok here's the situation. I am ripping my DVD collection to a new share that I created using the WHS Console called DVDs. I know this is frowned upon but I have installed Slysoft's CloneDVD 2 and AnyDVD onto WHS and using remote desktop to remote into the server to rip my DVDs. I did not rip directly to the "D:\shares\DVDs" directory, instead I am ripping to \\localhost\DVDs directory. I have ripped 70 DVDs so far and I get an error message half way through ripping a DVD that tells me:

    Creation of DVD files was not succesful:

    \\localhost\DVDs\DVD Name\...: write error

    The request could not be performed because of an I/O device error.

    The output drive might be full or is defective.

    Please select another drive to write output files to and try again.

     

    Here is my HD setup from Disk Management:

    Disk 0 - 111.78GB IDE - DATA Partition - 19.30GB Free Space

    Disk 1 - 465.75GB IDE - SYS Partition - 20GB/15.29GB Free / DATA Partition - 445.75GB/432.90GB Free

    Disk 2 - 465.75GB IDE - DATA Partition - 19.17GB Free Space

    Disk 3 - 465.75GB USB - DATA Partition - 444.62GB Free Space

     

    WHS Console reports:

    DVD Share at 349.56GB Used Space - No Duplication on this particular share, all others enabled

    Total Size: 1.47 TB

    Free Space 916.95 GB

    Shared Folders: 431 GB (28%)

    Duplication: 81 GB (5%)

    PC Backups: 61 GB

    System: 20 GB

    Storage is Balanced as well.

     

    Any suggestions to why this share will not accept any more files?

     

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:07 AM

Answers

  • Ryan, your primary data partition shows as almost empty because WHS tries very hard to keep it empty, even at the cost of filling up every other drive in your system. There are several reasons for this. First, that's the disk on which a file first lands when you copy it to WHS. Everything DE does starts from there, so keeping it clear to accept new files is obviously a priority. Second, the system disk in any PC is the one under the most stress, so it's the one you're likely to see fail first. Keeping that disk clean (which DE does if it can) is also a priority. You can rebuild or abandon everything that's kept on the DATA partition on the system disk, so it's not critical data.
    Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:34 PM
    Moderator

All replies

  • I would have to do some digging on your WHS to give particulars, but in general I've observed that in a system with a mix of internal and external (USB) disks, WHS uses the external disks only for duplication and backup storage. Internal disks are used for primary file storage, backups, and duplication. (eSATA is treated as an internal disk, I believe.) Probably you have a lot of other files that are not duplicated, and/or lots of backups.

    If you can, I would consider using the console to remove the USB drive from the storage pool, then install it internally. Then I would remove the current Disk 0, put it in the external drive case, and add it to the pool. Since there is some data on the external disk, you may be warned that you will lose backups, in which case you may want to just buy an additional internal drive.
    Saturday, September 1, 2007 3:11 PM
    Moderator
  •  Ken Warren wrote:

    ...but in general I've observed that in a system with a mix of internal and external (USB) disks, WHS uses the external disks only for duplication and backup storage.

     

    I sincerely hope you're wrong about that, Ken.  Although I would never hook up an external drive to add space (not with my 4 slot SATA backplane Wink  ), I can see A LOT of regular users that buy the pre-assembled systems doing just that to add storage space (due to fear of opening up the computer).  And if what you said is true, I'd be willing to bet that it does not mention that fact in any WHS documentation anywhere....

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 3:27 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks Ken for the quick answer, however...

    The external hard drive is not an enclosure, its a WD 500GB My Book.

    Even if what you say is true about external drives being used to store duplication and backups and internal disks for primary storage, backups and duplication, then why is my Disk 1 still showing over 430GB of Free space on its DATA partition? If its for primary storage then it should be able to handle more files correct?

    This is how the drive configuration is on the motherboard:

    IDE Channel 1:

    Master - 500GB internal (System & Data Partitions)

    Slave - 500GB internal (DATA)

    IDE Channel 2:

    Master - 120GB internal (DATA)

    Slave - DVD Drive

    I'm confused with this because in Disk Manager it shows that Disk 0 is my 120GB drive. Why wouldn't my System Disk (the 500GB drive set as master on IDE Channel 1) show up as my Disk 0?

     

    Let me know if any other information would help?

     

    Thanks again for the post.

    Ryan

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 3:35 PM
  • kariya, When I make a statement like that, it's going to be based on personal observation. Smile

    As a point of reference, I'm use my WHS production system. I have a mix of drives, with 5 internal, 1 external:
    1. system drive, internal, 20 GB C:, 129 GB D:
    2. storage drive, internal, 114 GB DATA
    3. storage drive, internal, 114 GB DATA
    4. storage drive, internal, 153 GB DATA
    5. storage drive, internal, 114 GB DATA
    6. storage drive, external, 279 GB DATA
    Free space (these are in the same order as above) is reported as:
    1. D: 121 GB
    2. DATA: 23 GB
    3. DATA: 18 GB
    4. DATA: 19 GB
    5. DATA: 19 GB
    6. DATA: 244 GB
    And all there is on the external drive is files that are in folders marked for duplication, and backups. I''ve just tried an experiment (create a new share with duplication off and put a couple of big files in it, total about 4 GB) to see where the files landed. They hit D: first, of course. After DE finished it's work, I see that 2. DATA only has 19 GB free. (D: also shows a loss of 4 GB, but I assume that will come back eventually.)

    So I'm pretty sure, at least for RC1, that WHS doesn't use external drives for primary storage. I just tried an experiment. I turned off duplication for a folder with about 18 GB of data. Then I turned duplication back on. I'm waiting for balancing to truly complete, but I'm learning more about DE in the process. When everything is said and done, I think the 18 GB of duplication will be pushed off to the external drive (down to 239 GB free at the moment) and I'll have more space free on my internal drives. But DE appears to be staging files back to the system drive for the duplication process, so that's down a bit further.

    Edit: balacing has finished. DE does a poor job of cleaning up after itself. Smile D: is still at 117, and 6. DATA is down to about 230 GB. It already had some of the duplicated files on it before I started my experiment, so that's about right.
    Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:29 PM
    Moderator
  • Ryan, your primary data partition shows as almost empty because WHS tries very hard to keep it empty, even at the cost of filling up every other drive in your system. There are several reasons for this. First, that's the disk on which a file first lands when you copy it to WHS. Everything DE does starts from there, so keeping it clear to accept new files is obviously a priority. Second, the system disk in any PC is the one under the most stress, so it's the one you're likely to see fail first. Keeping that disk clean (which DE does if it can) is also a priority. You can rebuild or abandon everything that's kept on the DATA partition on the system disk, so it's not critical data.
    Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:34 PM
    Moderator
  • I understand how DE works keeping the DATA partition clear on the system disk, but with all that free space on the first disk, why would it say that there is insufficient space?

    I'm sure there is an answer some where for this but I don't want to beat this to death.

    I added a second external 500GB hard drive just to see if it would maybe nudge DE into seeing that there is definitely plenty of space now and it must have worked because I'm able to continue ripping my DVDs. I may remove that drive later on to see if I get the same error just as a test. I'll keep you posted.

     

    Thanks Ken & kariya

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 6:13 PM
  •  Ken Warren wrote:
    kariya, When I make a statement like that, it's going to be based on personal observation.

    As a point of reference, I'm use my WHS production system. I have a mix of drives, with 5 internal, 1 external:
    1. system drive, internal, 20 GB C:, 129 GB D:
    2. storage drive, internal, 114 GB DATA
    3. storage drive, internal, 114 GB DATA
    4. storage drive, internal, 153 GB DATA
    5. storage drive, internal, 114 GB DATA
    6. storage drive, external, 279 GB DATA
    Free space (these are in the same order as above) is reported as:
    1. D: 121 GB
    2. DATA: 23 GB
    3. DATA: 18 GB
    4. DATA: 19 GB
    5. DATA: 19 GB
    6. DATA: 244 GB

    And all there is on the external drive is files that are in folders marked for duplication, and backups. I''ve just tried an experiment (create a new share with duplication off and put a couple of big files in it, total about 4 GB) to see where the files landed. They hit D: first, of course. After DE finished it's work, I see that 2. DATA only has 19 GB free. (D: also shows a loss of 4 GB, but I assume that will come back eventually.)

    So I'm pretty sure, at least for RC1, that WHS doesn't use external drives for primary storage. I just tried an experiment. I turned off duplication for a folder with about 18 GB of data. Then I turned duplication back on. I'm waiting for balancing to truly complete, but I'm learning more about DE in the process. When everything is said and done, I think the 18 GB of duplication will be pushed off to the external drive (down to 239 GB free at the moment) and I'll have more space free on my internal drives. But DE appears to be staging files back to the system drive for the duplication process, so that's down a bit further.

    Edit: balacing has finished. DE does a poor job of cleaning up after itself. D: is still at 117, and 6. DATA is down to about 230 GB. It already had some of the duplicated files on it before I started my experiment, so that's about right.

     

    Well, it sounds like your theory is correct (especially since Ryan's server started working again after he added another drive).  Unfortunately, in my opinion, that's not good....

     

    The fact that Ryan's server would not accept any new data when it still had 877.52 GB of free space has me more than a little concerned (and re-considering buying the OS now).  I can understand how WHS may want to prioritize where the data goes, but to just flat out refuse new data with that much free space left is, in my opinion, completely UNACCEPTABLE.  Why should the type/location of the drive matter?  Put the data somewhere (even if it has to go through a process of moving Folder Dup'ed files that may have been on one of the internal drives off to the external drive first, then move the new data to where the Dup'ed files were originally)!  I cannot believe MS would make such a terrible design flaw.  To me, this is far worse than the lack of a Primary Drive rebuild completion notification (at least that one only affects OEM/System Builders).

     

    What seems really odd to me is that in my current WHS configuration, I have 2 drives (500 GB and 400 GB) with 800 GB of data stored on it.  I don't have any problems with "no more space" (even though it is obviously using the D partition for storing nearly half of the data).  So if it can use the D partition for data storage with only 2 drives, why can't it do it for 3 (or more)?

     

    As I said before, Ken, I sincerely hope you're wrong (but I don't think you are).  I would really like to hear from someone on the development team and see if Ken's theory is correct (and, more importantly, if this is how RTM is).  If so, Microsoft just lost 1 sale for sure (and I suspect more than that......)

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:46 PM
    Moderator
  • In a two-disk system, the D: partition is used for duplication and backups, in addition to being used for a landing zone and "tombstones". And it could be that it's used for primary storage too. I don't have spare hardware to build another WHS to test with right now, and testing in a VM isn't really satisfactory (in addition to which, I can't spare the disk space to actually fill those virtual drives).

    You can find out by checking the contents of C:\FS and D:\DE. Both are hidden. C:\FS contains mount points for all your storage drives, and D:\DE contains duplication and backups; if you have primary storage occurring on D: that's where it'll be too, I expect.
    Saturday, September 1, 2007 11:07 PM
    Moderator
  •  Ken Warren wrote:
    In a two-disk system, the D: partition is used for duplication and backups, in addition to being used for a landing zone and "tombstones". And it could be that it's used for primary storage too. I don't have spare hardware to build another WHS to test with right now, and testing in a VM isn't really satisfactory (in addition to which, I can't spare the disk space to actually fill those virtual drives).

    You can find out by checking the contents of C:\FS and D:\DE. Both are hidden. C:\FS contains mount points for all your storage drives, and D:\DE contains duplication and backups; if you have primary storage occurring on D: that's where it'll be too, I expect.

     

    Yes, that is correct.  On my server, the actual data files are stored at C:\FS\F\DE and D:\DE.

     

    My point was that if your theory is correct regarding Ryan's free-space problem (and I suspect that it is, judging by your experiment and Ryan's observations), I think MS really dropped the ball on this.  To (apparently) not allow WHS to save data on the D partition/external drive in a 3+ drive system is ludicrous.  If WHS makes it a last resort, fine.  Even if MS made it so WHS displayed some warning (which would probably be confusing as heck to the average user), fine.  But to just flat out deny all of that space to data storage makes no sense at all.

     

    Actually, judging by your current config, you seem to be right about where Ryan was before he added the extra drive (you seem to have free space only on D and external as well).  If you added 50 GB of new data, do you know where it would end up?

    Saturday, September 1, 2007 11:37 PM
    Moderator
  • Well, I didn't want to wait for 50 GB, so I settled for 10, copied to a non-duplicated share. It went on the external drive. So we can all sleep tonight; WHS did the Right Thing™. Smile Though it did it very slowly, thanks to the external drive. And BTW, just to see what would happen, I had Explorer on the server open to the mounted ddrive that the files were written to when I removed the share. Unsurprisingly, I now have an empty folder structure on that drive...

    Which begs the question the OP was asking: why did he get an error when he tried to copy so much data to his server that the external drive would have been used? I think it's possible he has a failing external drive. Either that or he managed to fill up his D: partition before WHS could migrate files off.
    Sunday, September 2, 2007 3:25 AM
    Moderator
  •  Ken Warren wrote:
    Well, I didn't want to wait for 50 GB, so I settled for 10, copied to a non-duplicated share. It went on the external drive. So we can all sleep tonight; WHS did the Right Thing™.

     

    Whew!  What a relief!  I was about to really go off on someone... Wink

     

     Ken Warren wrote:

    Though it did it very slowly, thanks to the external drive.

     

    Not a big surprise there...

     

     Ken Warren wrote:

    And BTW, just to see what would happen, I had Explorer on the server open to the mounted ddrive that the files were written to when I removed the share. Unsurprisingly, I now have an empty folder structure on that drive...

     

    Not a big surprise there either.  Just out of curiosity, did you get a warning saying all data would be deleted when you attempted to remove the share?

     

     Ken Warren wrote:

    Which begs the question the OP was asking: why did he get an error when he tried to copy so much data to his server that the external drive would have been used? I think it's possible he has a failing external drive. Either that or he managed to fill up his D: partition before WHS could migrate files off.

     

    Well, he said his D drive was nearly empty, so I would assume that it would be a failing external drive as well.....

     

    In any event Ken, I want to apologize if I came off as being rude (I was just frustrated with what seemed to be a critical design flaw).  I've been a lurker on this board for a while and only started posting recently (once I felt I had a pretty good handle on how WHS works).  You obviously know your stuff when it comes to computers and give very detailed explanations on how it works.  (But I'm glad to see you were wrong on this one... Wink  )

    Sunday, September 2, 2007 5:22 AM
    Moderator