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RECOGNITION POINTS RRS feed

  • Question

  • This is the second time in 2 years when you "lost" my points: first time 1500, now around 3000 points. If you are not able to count them, why do you keep this points system? To annoy some users?
    dni
    Monday, July 18, 2011 3:59 PM

Answers

  • This was not done overnight. Below are some recent posts and communications about this change.

     

    • May 3rd http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/announce/thread/dc3e78b3-bbc0-4891-be2c-6f718286a4eb
    • June 10th http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/announce/thread/ce37baec-2489-4db4-81e7-6d21c7c23d9d 

     

    ...and as we got closer to finalizing the point’s recalculation...

       

    • June 30th to the announcements forum:  http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/announce/thread/07c68502-6551-4970-adde-7360002c54d5
    • July 6th update was posted to the forums issues forum: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/reportabug/thread/594111e0-af3c-449a-932d-c1f7b0001b5f
    • Blog update posted on June 30th here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/addeditdelete/archive/2011/06/30/forums-recognition-update-coming-july-14th-2011.aspx

     

    I do acknowledge that we need to continue to work on outward communication for our users, we can always do better in this area.
    An important thing to understand is that the old points system had a couple of substantial "holes". We had a lot of cases where users were gaining a lot of points for simply replying in the forums, submitting a bunch of replies but not really helping people. I don't know how many times I came across a spammer that had a lot of points, simply for replying to threads a lot in the system over time. We also had a history of self-marking inflating people's points. While self-marking does have a place in the system, it isn't something we wanted to reward points for. In short, the new point’s calculations move reply points towards achievements enabling users to gain medals that reflect effort based activities. Points are more aligned with community contributions speaking to value, as determined by the community. In short, the old linear point’s calculations were plagued with areas that actually made it more difficult for users to evaluate each other's contributions in a consistent way.  As stated in various threads on this topic, all users are on the same points calculation engine, I also lost a lot of points, but I'd rather have fewer points that are more accurate than more points that have caveats in explaining my value to the community.

     

    Finally, the current system is not perfect, we realize this. We are committed to continuing to work on the problem to make it more meaningful. One important aspect of this 'version 1' update from the antiquated 6 year old system was to get us onto a more sustainable and flexible system. Aside from the "holes" the old system was difficult to maintain, fix or change in any way and actually caused other parts of the forums to break from time to time. Also, as Sean highlights above, a centralized more flexible system will enable us to better explain a user's participation. While some of these contributions (blogs) are only open for MS users others like the gallery, library annotations and wiki contributions are open. A few things I think we need to do in the somewhat near future, although we don't have targeted dates for releasing these:

     

    • A faq sheet with exactly activity counts and point allocation numbers for all activities
    • Render core statistics for a user # replies, # answers in addition to the points and achievements
    • Render a user's trend or time box for participation, letting people see what a user has done recently 
    • Understand a user's area of expertise, product technology area of participation

     

    Again, I don't have schedules for these yet, but being on the new system at least enables us to consider changes like this. Realize we have no plans to go back to the old points system but do acknowledge this is quite a shift in how we have been handling recognition. If people have some new ideas for making the system better, please let us know.

    Community Forums Program Manager


    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 6:02 PM
  • @DNI - why don't you use the site feedback link and send me your contact details (phone number preferably), and I'll give you a call and we can talk through your concerns further? Clearly this is affecting you more than we can understand in a forum. We can review through your older data and how the points were earned and how the points are earned now and why there is a difference in your total points.

    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 4:21 PM
  • The recognition system was changed last week to a new system that has slightly different rules on how you earn points. More info is here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/addeditdelete/archive/2011/06/30/forums-recognition-update-coming-july-14th-2011.aspx
    Monday, July 18, 2011 5:17 PM
  • It really depends on the kinds of activities you were performing on the blogs. If the replies you provided weren't the answers to the questions, then you'll have those old "2 points per reply" removed. If you were self-marking your own answers as answers, then you'll have lost those points.

    The reality is we've updated our rules and recalculated based on those rules. We made the changes for the better of the community to reward the behaviours that help folks solve their problems. Other users haven't kept their points any more than you have. The same rules were applied to everyone. If you're seeing people who "lost" less points than you, then they earned them in a different way than you. Please also realize that it's not only Forums that feeds into the recognition system now - it's blogs, wikis, and galleries (with more applications to come) and those could be contributing to others with their points totals.

    Monday, July 18, 2011 11:49 PM

All replies

  • This is the second time in 2 years when you "lost" my points: first time 1500, now around 3000points. If you are not able to count them, why do you keep this points system? To annoy some users?
    dni
    • Merged by Brent Serbus Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:38 PM same issue
    Monday, July 18, 2011 4:46 PM
  • The recognition system was changed last week to a new system that has slightly different rules on how you earn points. More info is here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/addeditdelete/archive/2011/06/30/forums-recognition-update-coming-july-14th-2011.aspx
    Monday, July 18, 2011 5:17 PM
  • Very smart answer! Thank you.

    Let's try:

    Why other users kept their points and why me I am loosing points each time when you change system? This time are around 3000!!! I will not accept this!


    dni


    Monday, July 18, 2011 5:20 PM
  • It really depends on the kinds of activities you were performing on the blogs. If the replies you provided weren't the answers to the questions, then you'll have those old "2 points per reply" removed. If you were self-marking your own answers as answers, then you'll have lost those points.

    The reality is we've updated our rules and recalculated based on those rules. We made the changes for the better of the community to reward the behaviours that help folks solve their problems. Other users haven't kept their points any more than you have. The same rules were applied to everyone. If you're seeing people who "lost" less points than you, then they earned them in a different way than you. Please also realize that it's not only Forums that feeds into the recognition system now - it's blogs, wikis, and galleries (with more applications to come) and those could be contributing to others with their points totals.

    Monday, July 18, 2011 11:49 PM
  • Like your colleague (with rabbit ears) who “took” without justification two yers ago 1500 points from my account, you continue the same style to insult my intelligence. I don’t think I had more than 40 points from “self-marked” answers and I took that as an offence(you accuse me I illegally added points?). Last week I had same “achievements” and over 3000 points more (I have a copy of screen). I like to have an official answer about my missing points from one of your’s managers.
    dni
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:31 AM
  • Did you intend to sell these points? :))
    For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Becker's Law


    My blog

    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:46 AM
    Moderator
  • @Naomi

    That is a very limited question and my points are not your concern...:)

     

    PS It is about "best practices"...If someone tell to his boss: I have x points...Next day the boss checking the points and are less...Is someone lying?

     


    dni
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:01 AM
  • Please also realize that it's not only Forums that feeds into the recognition system now - it's blogs, wikis, and galleries (with more applications to come) and those could be contributing to others with their points totals.


    You really need to be a bit more honest and upfront with your replies as you know too well that blogs (and potentially Wiki) only apply to Microsoft Employees and that you have no intentions of rewarding non-Microsoft Employees for blog (Wiki) posts. It's this sort of misleading statement which is p@#$ing people off.  Why all the secrecy?  Why is there still no documentation which clearly explains the changes and why some points have been taken off of people and how points will be earned in the future?

    From the perspective of non-Microsoft Employees, it appears that we are losing points and having our ability to gain points severely limited by the new recognition system however it’s become far too easy for Microsoft Employees (who get paid to blog and respond to forums) to gain points.  I can completely understand why this OP is so angry.


    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:01 AM
  • @Naomi

    That is a very limited question and my points are not your concern...:)

     

    PS It is about "best practices"...If someone tell to his boss: I have x points...Next day the boss checking the points and are less...Is someone lying?

     


    dni

    Why should your boss care about the points you earn of these forums?
    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:02 AM
  • Hi Jeff,

    In regards to WiKi I think everyone is allowed to post new WiKi articles or edit existing one. Say, yesterday I did a very minor typo edit and earned a new achievement.

    For SQL Server you may want to start from

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/sql-server-overview.aspx


    For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Becker's Law


    My blog
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:50 AM
    Moderator
  • Ah, didn't know that link existed.  Thanks for letting me know :-)
    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:51 AM
  • So all I need to do now is find a Wiki with a typo and fix it lol
    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:58 AM
  • @Naomi

    That is a very limited question and my points are not your concern...:)

     

    PS It is about "best practices"...If someone tell to his boss: I have x points...Next day the boss checking the points and are less...Is someone lying?

     


    dni

    Why should your boss care about the points you earn of these forums?
    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker

    I did not mention my boss. It is a good sense isssue: If you don't need your bike will you allow to manufacturer to take parts from it, overnight?
    dni
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:42 PM
  • @Naomi

    That is a very limited question and my points are not your concern...:)

     

    PS It is about "best practices"...If someone tell to his boss: I have x points...Next day the boss checking the points and are less...Is someone lying?

     


    dni

    Why should your boss care about the points you earn of these forums?
    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker

    I did not mention my boss. It is a good sense isssue: If you don't need your bike will you allow to manufacturer to take parts from it, overnight?
    dni
    QFT :P
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:04 PM
  • This was not done overnight. Below are some recent posts and communications about this change.

     

    • May 3rd http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/announce/thread/dc3e78b3-bbc0-4891-be2c-6f718286a4eb
    • June 10th http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/announce/thread/ce37baec-2489-4db4-81e7-6d21c7c23d9d 

     

    ...and as we got closer to finalizing the point’s recalculation...

       

    • June 30th to the announcements forum:  http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/announce/thread/07c68502-6551-4970-adde-7360002c54d5
    • July 6th update was posted to the forums issues forum: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/reportabug/thread/594111e0-af3c-449a-932d-c1f7b0001b5f
    • Blog update posted on June 30th here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/addeditdelete/archive/2011/06/30/forums-recognition-update-coming-july-14th-2011.aspx

     

    I do acknowledge that we need to continue to work on outward communication for our users, we can always do better in this area.
    An important thing to understand is that the old points system had a couple of substantial "holes". We had a lot of cases where users were gaining a lot of points for simply replying in the forums, submitting a bunch of replies but not really helping people. I don't know how many times I came across a spammer that had a lot of points, simply for replying to threads a lot in the system over time. We also had a history of self-marking inflating people's points. While self-marking does have a place in the system, it isn't something we wanted to reward points for. In short, the new point’s calculations move reply points towards achievements enabling users to gain medals that reflect effort based activities. Points are more aligned with community contributions speaking to value, as determined by the community. In short, the old linear point’s calculations were plagued with areas that actually made it more difficult for users to evaluate each other's contributions in a consistent way.  As stated in various threads on this topic, all users are on the same points calculation engine, I also lost a lot of points, but I'd rather have fewer points that are more accurate than more points that have caveats in explaining my value to the community.

     

    Finally, the current system is not perfect, we realize this. We are committed to continuing to work on the problem to make it more meaningful. One important aspect of this 'version 1' update from the antiquated 6 year old system was to get us onto a more sustainable and flexible system. Aside from the "holes" the old system was difficult to maintain, fix or change in any way and actually caused other parts of the forums to break from time to time. Also, as Sean highlights above, a centralized more flexible system will enable us to better explain a user's participation. While some of these contributions (blogs) are only open for MS users others like the gallery, library annotations and wiki contributions are open. A few things I think we need to do in the somewhat near future, although we don't have targeted dates for releasing these:

     

    • A faq sheet with exactly activity counts and point allocation numbers for all activities
    • Render core statistics for a user # replies, # answers in addition to the points and achievements
    • Render a user's trend or time box for participation, letting people see what a user has done recently 
    • Understand a user's area of expertise, product technology area of participation

     

    Again, I don't have schedules for these yet, but being on the new system at least enables us to consider changes like this. Realize we have no plans to go back to the old points system but do acknowledge this is quite a shift in how we have been handling recognition. If people have some new ideas for making the system better, please let us know.

    Community Forums Program Manager


    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 6:02 PM
  • Thanks Brent
    Jeff Wharton
    MSysDev (C.Sturt), MDbDsgnMgt (C.Sturt), MCT, MCPD, MCITP, MCDBA
    Blog: Mr. Wharty's Ramblings
    MC ID: Microsoft Transcript

    Please mark solved if I've answered your question, vote for it as helpful to help other user's find a solution quicker
    Tuesday, July 19, 2011 10:16 PM
  • I was Participated in the MSDN forums for long two years and recently obtained the points and medals were reduced.

     Until a few days had made 2 gold medals and more than 1400 pts.

      I take this opportunity to mention that he once denounced before a moderator rating is not deserved an answer, that is, unfortunately there are a group of participants and moderators (not all) are biased to favor them for a few users in their responses. This is our world from spinning but I think they can control and not allow harm to the company.

      If there is no way to review my case and get my reconociimento obtained low den ask me in the forums and my account is deleted siscond@hotmail.com.
    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 1:04 PM
  • @Brent S.

     

    Overnight my points disappeared, not your hard work to hide them!

    The question was about where are my points and you are not able to answer it! Two years ago I lost 1500 points and you gave me the same long, boring, out off topic, saying nothing answer and how hard you are working, "holes" in system...etc. Now your arrogance has increased: you suggest I self-marked 3440 points to justify your incapacity to answer !!!  I don't care about your "posts and communication" if they are not answer to the question. Your attitude against helping people posters is improper. Take in account they promote your so patched products for free, and save you a lot of customer service. With this attitude the day when your forums will be empty is not so far... Anyway I don't need anymore my disappeared points because you made them doubtful. In the future I will think thrice before access one of your forums. Keep hard working, you improved points system and you just earned some flattering points for a bad answer from Naomi.


    dni
    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 1:48 PM
  • @DNI - why don't you use the site feedback link and send me your contact details (phone number preferably), and I'll give you a call and we can talk through your concerns further? Clearly this is affecting you more than we can understand in a forum. We can review through your older data and how the points were earned and how the points are earned now and why there is a difference in your total points.

    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 4:21 PM
  • @Sean J.

    My points are not subject for a private conversation... Recognition points are earned from forum users not from you. Your "forced" mission is to count them, but it looks you are not able to do it, and more you are playing and you are using the points like they belong to you. Yo can not apply new rules to points earned with old rules. It is like I have a $100 gift card and money (on it) are decreasing because the card issuer decided to count only $70 (new rule). You can not take my points: they are not from you, they are from users. If you want recognition points ask users to give for your products. 


    dni
    Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:10 PM