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Conspiracy Theory RRS feed

  • Question

  • I've just had a problem with the WGA. Sound familiar. Well I've been discussing this with others and after a phone call to MS have come to the conclusion that MS has deliberately canceled thousands of these so called VLK product ID's. Think about it, they control the system, heck they are the system and whatever they say goes. They say your software is counterfeit what can you do??? Nothing! Oh yeah send away for a kit to replace your 'so called fake' PID.

    Look this is what happened. MS contracted many many companies to make their software. Manufacturing side of things. Making the actual disks etc...and puting the COA stickers on with the PID's etc... generating the PID's even in many cases. I'm talking about OEM disks and PID's that are now being called counterfeit key generated volume licenses. MS just decided they were going to nix thousands of packs of OEM SP2 that were legitimately made and purchased by consumers to build machines and now MS decides they want to basically 'recall without reason' and cancel thousands of PID's. MS is breaking the law somewhere in there somewhere.

    That's MS's game or racket or down right thievery. They control everything and can say anything they want and can deliberately expire PID's. That's how they plan on moving everyone up to version 7 or even just Vista. Just sweat everyone out. Heck 75% of everyone having a problem with the WGA doesn't even remember where they got the software or the computer anyway and may not even have receipts or the machine is second hand, yet is probably legal as can be.

    If you saw the so-called counterfeit software I have that MS says is fake anyway it would cost more to make this stuff than the software even sells for. MS just decided that they were going to call all the software and PID's from a group of manufacturers counterfeit, even though those manufactures were contracted by MS to make the software years and years ago and deliver it for distribution and it was all gobbled up by consumer machine builders. MS is just thinnning things out. They are playing god.

    I have some software that I can almost 99.9999% sure is real, yet MS says to me it is counterfeit. Look dozens of companies were manufacturing disks and PID's for MS back in time. Those OEM versions were flying off the shelves faster than toilet paper. Now MS just decides a certain make and model is counterfeit and what can anyone do. Nothing. Just write it up here and hope enough people jump on. I cant even get a freebee because I bought OEM versions from at least 5 different vendors and don't know which came from which and I dont even know if some are still in business and I'm not going to start pointing fingers at legit companies when I dont know where to point.

    This is all just a ploy by MS to get everyone to move on, upgrade to version 7, and retire xp pro. I can point to one of there so-called validation criteria that is not consistent and does not show up on every piece of completely valid media. So that right there tells you the system is not foolproof, just made by fools. If MS says every piece of media has to have this certain validation criteria when I have talked to MS and given them PID's they say are valid yet the disk I read that from does not have the security point they require, then I dont believe that MS has a good handle on all of these VLK and OEM codes.

    I know for certain I have valid media and valid PID's and MS is saying they are counterfeit. Total BS. That would mean that I have purchased fake xp pro OEM software from companies like newegg and zipzoomfly and clubit and tigerdirect and directron and compartsusa and others. That just did not happen, so that means MS is completely fabricating this whole counterfeit software thing. What MS calls 'high quality' counterfeit are packages of OEM software that MS contracted manufacturers to make and deliver for distribution and all sold out. Now MS can just pull the plug on packages at random from any number of legit manufacturers that they know the PID's etc...and MS can just say they are counterfeit and nothing anyone can do. What can we do? there has to be something? someone figure something out please.

    I have to say this all just my opinion and I have no hard stone cold facts to back any of it up so MS doesnt sue me for slander or anything like that. I am entitled to my opinion I think and if I had stone cold facts to back this theory up you can bet your bottom dollar I would go straight to the software police. Oh wait, MS is the software police.

    Oh well, just ____ and moan I guess.
    • Moved by Carey FrischMVP, Moderator Friday, August 28, 2009 1:25 PM Moved to relevant category (From:Windows XP Genuine Advantage Validation Issues (Windows XP))
    Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:42 PM

Answers

  • Hello lastman_standing,

    Your installed XP Pro is as you surmised a nongenuine installation because it is a Volume Licensing installation with an invalid product key.

    The report shows that this is a Dell Dimension 8200 computer and since it's reporting an installed BIOS of A09 it's almost a certainty that the original motherboard is still installed (good luck getting RamBus RAM for that thing!).  This computer should have a Certificate of Authenticity affixed to it showing which edition of XP came with it.

    You can request an OS Reinstallation CD from Dell (if you don't have one) and put the original shipping XP back onto the computer and then it will be a 100% genuine installation once again.

    If you are not the original owner, do a Dell ownership transfer at this link:  http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/change_order/tag_transfer?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

    Then when that's done, request a replacement OS Reinstallation CD:  http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/dellcare/en/backupcd_form?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&redirect=1
    For great advice on all topics XP, visit http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp
    Friday, August 28, 2009 5:43 PM
  • Hello lastman_standing,

    You wrote, "Yeah Dan, Thanks a lot for that calm cool and totally canned advice."  Not canned at all, perfectly tailored to you exact situation, down to telling you what version of motherboard BIOS is installed on the computer.

    You wrote, "When the operating system works why do we need to keep buying more and more and more licenses?"

    Exactly my question to you....why did you buy what turned out to be a counterfeit copy of XP when there was no need for a new license?  Just because the hard disk drive died on your Dell, there was no reason to buy a new license.  Why didn't you just use the Dell OS Reinstallation CD that came with the computer to reinstall Windows onto the new hard disk drive?


    You also wrote, "If I buy a licence for one computer then I should be able to use and reuse that license on one computer at a time and I should be able to reuse that license on a new computer if the first one fails as long as I am only using it on one computer at a time, it's my license I paid for it and the only reason I cant reuse it on a new computer if the first one fails is because that is the way MS wrote the  agreement that I had no choice but to accept if I wanted to use a computer."

    What you want is ALREADY available, it's called a "full retail" license.
    For great advice on all topics XP, visit http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp
    Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:04 AM

All replies

  • Hello lastman_standing,

    You wrote, "I have some software that I can almost 99.9999% sure is real, yet MS says to me it is counterfeit."

    Run the mgadiag against it and post the results.
    For great advice on all topics XP, visit http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp
    Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:58 PM
  • Hi Dan,

    Of course the mgadiag is going to say my software is pirated. I'm going to post it for whatever good it does, but my point is microsoft own the system and can say and do whatever they want. Scenario:

    Microsoft contracts out the manufacture of millions of xp pro disks, millions. Then they have to contract out all of the distribution and sales. Now there are probably dozens of different manufacturers of the media and they are given the right to generate PID's or they are given a list of PID's or simply all of the COA's with PID's to attach to the product. Either way microsoft contracted companies to make their software with COA's and package it all up nice and neat and then distribute it all over the US or maybe even the globe. I'm talking OEM packages. 2002 with SP2. The ones just about everyone on this site is having a problem with. The ones MS is now calling VLK and counterfeit and fake and key generated.  

    I bought all of this software back in 2005 and 2006 from several different vendors all legit companies named above, I have some receipts and could probably look up others, but I cant tell which xp pro came from which company so I can not point a finger. Out of 8 copies of XP pro OEM 2002 SP2 it seems I have 2 'so-called' counterfeit or at least when I use the wgadiag tool and check with the key change tool all of the PID's seem to be accepted but 2 of them, they all show good but 2 copies, I then cancel out of the key change tool so my PID does not get transferred to that machine. That method seems to work for checking PID validity??

    Back to the scenario:

    Now what happened next is either the manufacturer and MS had some sort of falling out, didnt pay the bills or something, or maybe the legitimate manufacturer made some extra software illegitimately, I dont really know what happened, but that MS decided to go and cancel those PID's and call them counterfeit so that they could just eradicate thousands of legitimate copies of XP. Maybe the manufacturer was given authority to make PID's for OEM software under some kind of volume agreement with MS and then the manufacturer was suppose to reimburse MS for every copy of the software they sold and distributed. Now if the manufacturer decided not to reimburse MS for every copy they made and sold... MS knows the PID's from that manufacturer so they can now go and call them VLK PID's and nix them. It's not a consumer problem it's a manufacturer problem that MS is puting onto the consumer, like every biga$$ corporation does. Now if the legitimate manufacturer made extra copies and distributed them into the system and MS is now culling them out then that is still MS problem between them and the manufacturer. As far as the consumer is concerned they bought a legitimate copy of xp pro oem from a legitimate company.

    If MS is just going to swap out the 'so-called' counterfeit with real software without receipts or proof of purchase then that should satisfy most any consumer and myself, but MS wont, so therefore people like me that build computers as a hobby or several a year for friends and family are stuck out to blow in the wind. If MS has teh power to just pull the plug whenever they want, then nobody is safe and teh software you are using today may just fail validation the next time you need to update just because MS needs more people to buy vista or ver7.

    All of this xp validation problems started happening when vista sales were slumping because people realized they dont need the update, xp works just fine, if it's not broke dont fix it type thing. Well MS found a way anyway, and they can make it look completely legit, they just nixed off a ton of PID's from their list, or renamed them VLK and expired them or whatever the heck they did it made it so thousands of people all of a sudden found out software they bought legitimately was fake. I'm telling you the sophistication of the fake is too good to be true.

    This is all theory mind you, but I've got some software that I've only purchased from legitimate vendors all OEM that are now coming up VLK. I dont claim to know everything but just that the sophistication of these counterfeits is so good these counterfeiters should be making US currency instead.

    Oh and by the way, MS says that for the holographic disk with wavy edge needs to have the word 'genuine' appear over the word 'microsoft' when the disk is tilted in order for the disk to be real, down in that little rectangle under 'professional'. Well that is not true in all cases. I have several disks that MS told me the PID's were valid where that tilting thing and the word 'genuine', does not appear. If they are wrong about there own security details then they can be wrong about anything.

    Here is my wga dump:

    Diagnostic Report (1.7.0062.0):
    -----------------------------------------
    WGA Data-->
    Validation Status: Invalid Product Key
    Validation Code: 8
    Online Validation Code: N/A
    Cached Validation Code: N/A
    Windows Product Key: *****-*****-CQVDT-CWHCM-V728Y
    Windows Product Key Hash: 77sfXjTAuA3ATpLR+Lrnjv8vchI=
    Windows Product ID: 55274-640-3653605-23418
    Windows Product ID Type: 1
    Windows License Type: Volume
    Windows OS version: 5.1.2600.2.00010100.2.0.pro
    CSVLK Server: N/A
    CSVLK PID: N/A
    ID: {C1847705-CFCF-48AC-BFE5-D7009D467CB9}(3)
    Is Admin: Yes
    TestCab: 0x0
    WGA Version: Registered, 1.9.40.0
    Signed By: Microsoft
    Product Name: N/A
    Architecture: N/A
    Build lab: N/A
    TTS Error: N/A
    Validation Diagnostic: 025D1FF3-171-1
    Resolution Status: N/A

    Vista BRT Data-->
    Grace Flag: N/A
    Commit: N/A
    Reboot Flag: N/A
    ThreatID(s): N/A
    Wgaer.exe Version: N/A, hr = 0x80070002
    Wgaer.exe Signed By: N/A, hr = 0x80070002

    Notifications Data-->
    Cached Result: 8
    File Exists: Yes
    Version: 1.9.40.0
    WgaTray.exe Signed By: Microsoft
    WgaLogon.dll Signed By: Microsoft

    OGA Data-->
    Office Status: 109 N/A
    OGA Version: N/A, 0x80070002
    Signed By: N/A, hr = 0x80070002
    Office Diagnostics: FCEE394C-2968-80070002_B4D0AA8B-470-80070002

    Browser Data-->
    Proxy settings: N/A
    User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Win32)
    Default Browser: C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iexplore.exe
    Download signed ActiveX controls: Prompt
    Download unsigned ActiveX controls: Disabled
    Run ActiveX controls and plug-ins: Allowed
    Initialize and script ActiveX controls not marked as safe: Disabled
    Allow scripting of Internet Explorer Webbrowser control: Disabled
    Active scripting: Allowed
    Script ActiveX controls marked as safe for scripting: Allowed

    File Scan Data-->

    Other data-->
    Office Details: <GenuineResults><MachineData><UGUID>{C1847705-CFCF-48AC-BFE5-D7009D467CB9}</UGUID><Version>1.7.0062.0</Version><OS>5.1.2600.2.00010100.2.0.pro</OS><Architecture>x32</Architecture><PKey>*****-*****-*****-*****-V728Y</PKey><PID>55274-640-3653605-23418</PID><PIDType>1</PIDType><SID>S-1-5-21-789336058-152049171-725345543</SID><SYSTEM><Manufacturer>Dell Computer Corporation</Manufacturer><Model>Dimension 8200               </Model></SYSTEM><BIOS><Manufacturer>Dell Computer Corporation</Manufacturer><Version>A09</Version><SMBIOSVersion major="2" minor="3"/><Date>20020913000000.000000+000</Date></BIOS><HWID>6F5231870184DF72</HWID><UserLCID>0409</UserLCID><SystemLCID>0409</SystemLCID><TimeZone>Pacific Standard Time(GMT-08:00)</TimeZone><iJoin>0</iJoin><SBID><stat>3</stat><msppid></msppid><name></name><model></model></SBID><OEM/><BRT/></MachineData>   <Software><Office><Result>109</Result><Products/></Office></Software></GenuineResults> 

     

    Friday, August 28, 2009 4:51 PM
  • Let's assume for a minute these 'high quality counterfeits' for xp pro oem are really legitamate contracted manufactured media, that for some reason MS now wants to nix. I can think of dozens of reasons to nix peoples software so dont say MS wouldnt do it and dont say well that would be agianst the law because we've all seen huge companies and people for that matter break the law in way bigger ways with no regard for the consumer at all.

    So MS can say at any time they want that PID's are VLK or OEM or anything they want. The entire premise that VLK is only for upgrade, corporate, business, or anything is provided by MS and of course MS can call a PID a 'non-MS generated PID', they control the system that is providing the information.

    For crying out loud people. You are all just taking as fact anything MS tells you is true. MS wants your xp to screw up then you have to move on to ver7 or vista.

    I dont buy for minute that just because your hologram is a thin layer thermal foil that your software is counterfeit. It just means that MS decided one of there manufacturers wasnt paying up or something and they decided they could use that against them and the consumer to force this failure. There is nothing in the MS manufacturing that said disks couldnt be the thermal foil until MS decided to play a little bait and switch. They had one or several of their manufacturers make the thermal foil type either by accident or on purpose (which means this little mutiny was planned) and then when they had a falling out with that manufacturer they just decided to go in and say all those PIDs are fake.

    Why else would MS freely replace 'high quality counterfeits'...nobody can make these things this good without MS consent and material and MS knows if they didnt offer to replace then there would be rioting in the streets. MS knows that so many years have gone by since this software has been out that most will just upgrade to ver7 and vista and they win agian.
    Friday, August 28, 2009 5:20 PM
  • Hello lastman_standing,

    Your installed XP Pro is as you surmised a nongenuine installation because it is a Volume Licensing installation with an invalid product key.

    The report shows that this is a Dell Dimension 8200 computer and since it's reporting an installed BIOS of A09 it's almost a certainty that the original motherboard is still installed (good luck getting RamBus RAM for that thing!).  This computer should have a Certificate of Authenticity affixed to it showing which edition of XP came with it.

    You can request an OS Reinstallation CD from Dell (if you don't have one) and put the original shipping XP back onto the computer and then it will be a 100% genuine installation once again.

    If you are not the original owner, do a Dell ownership transfer at this link:  http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/change_order/tag_transfer?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

    Then when that's done, request a replacement OS Reinstallation CD:  http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/dellcare/en/backupcd_form?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&redirect=1
    For great advice on all topics XP, visit http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp
    Friday, August 28, 2009 5:43 PM
  • Yeah Dan, Thanks a lot for that calm cool and totally canned advice. I am the original owner of this machine and completely know everything about it, except for the fact when I put a new hard drive in after it crashed a few years ago, I also installed a brand spanking new xp pro oem sp2 package onto it, basically completely building a brand spanking new computer at that time. All went well for a year or so maybe, activated validated etc..., until MS decided to pull the plug on these 'so-called counterfeit' PID's, I'm still claiming were completely legitimate PID's manufactured at MS request and overseen by MS  authority. My PID is on a COA sticker and holographic disk etc...basically an xp pro oem sp2 package purchased from top rated legitimate companies I dont want to keep naming because I dont blame them, I blame MS for contracting out the manufacture and then deciding something went wrong and then pulling the plug on legitimate xp licences.

    That PID does not come up anywhere on MS site or the internet, just that MS does not want to pay for it and the thousands of other people that are having the same trouble. If it were illegal counterfeit key then it surely would have been used multiple times. This is just a legitimate copy manufactured under the authority of MS that MS decided they no longer wanted to support. MS just wants everyone to keep spending $$ and buying the latest and greatest. XP was fine and everyone knows it and we dont need to keep buying new OS's every 3-4 years. If it aint broke, dont fix it, for the love of god. XP works fine and there really isnt any reason to move onto vista or ver7 except to line the pockets of MS board and shareholders, total thievery and scam. When a ceo makes 10 million a year there are laws being broken somewhere, ethical or legal, just look at the companies that have proved that in the last year or so.

    My contention is just that somewhere along the transaction between MS and one or several of the legitimate, contracted by MS, manufacturers, the deal went sour. They didnt pay the royalties or whatever but MS simply pulled the plug on all of the PID's by those manufactures and just called them VLK BS whatever MS wants to call them and made up the entire story about 'non-MS key generator' PID crud.

    MS is just making the entire story up. All of the VLK and OEM and other licenses that MS says are counterfeit, of course are going to be whatever MS wants to say. Who has proof otherwise. MS holds all the face cards, No body can say anything against MS because MS is bigger than the Fed, bigger than anything on the planet. Look at all the companies that failed in the last couple years and then try and tell me that MS is totally honest and MS would never play like that. MS would never do anything criminal or illegal all in the name of $$, noooooooooo. Bigger companies, as big of companies as MS have broke bigger laws than this and went completely down the drain, where MS is going to meet them all some day, just watch.

    Just wait, it will all come out some time that MS pulled off this big huge scam and ripped off all kinds of consumers, thousands and hundreds of thousands, all in the pursuit of the almighty $$. MS just didnt get their cut from the manufacturers or need the consumers to move on over to vista or ver7 and is making the consumer pay for it and keep paying for it. I've seen it many times in other industries. The consumer always pays for the ineptitude biga$$ business.

    Enough is enough. When the operating system works why do we need to keep buying more and more and more licenses? Enough is enough already just leave it alone. Maybe in 10 years or so change it, MS  already has a monopoly and only allows one installation per license and basically kills a licence everytime the computer dies which I think is a total rip as it is. If I buy a licence for one computer then I should be able to use and reuse that license on one computer at a time and I should be able to reuse that license on a new computer if the first one fails as long as I am only using it on one computer at a time, it's my license I paid for it and the only reason I cant reuse it on a new computer if the first one fails is because that is the way MS wrote the  agreement that I had no choice but to accept if I wanted to use a computer. Total BS. In walks Google, bye bye MS.




    Friday, August 28, 2009 10:45 PM
  • Hello lastman_standing,

    You wrote, "Yeah Dan, Thanks a lot for that calm cool and totally canned advice."  Not canned at all, perfectly tailored to you exact situation, down to telling you what version of motherboard BIOS is installed on the computer.

    You wrote, "When the operating system works why do we need to keep buying more and more and more licenses?"

    Exactly my question to you....why did you buy what turned out to be a counterfeit copy of XP when there was no need for a new license?  Just because the hard disk drive died on your Dell, there was no reason to buy a new license.  Why didn't you just use the Dell OS Reinstallation CD that came with the computer to reinstall Windows onto the new hard disk drive?


    You also wrote, "If I buy a licence for one computer then I should be able to use and reuse that license on one computer at a time and I should be able to reuse that license on a new computer if the first one fails as long as I am only using it on one computer at a time, it's my license I paid for it and the only reason I cant reuse it on a new computer if the first one fails is because that is the way MS wrote the  agreement that I had no choice but to accept if I wanted to use a computer."

    What you want is ALREADY available, it's called a "full retail" license.
    For great advice on all topics XP, visit http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp
    Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:04 AM
  • Dan,

    I wanted to put xp pro on the computer, the license that came on the dell was xp home, I'm not as think as you dumb I am. At that time I think upgrade cost more then the OEM. Why the xp pro, for the networking with my place of employment. Right now they just gave me a new machine with xp pro license when I told them I had this problem so I will be loading the old OS back on this dell and transferring ownership to the school system. My job would have given me one back then when I first rebuilt this machine but I told them I didnt need it, at least I didnt think I did as I had several OEM packs left over I had purchased from various companies when I was building some computers from scratch a few years back. I bought from several different companies so I cant point to which one let this slip through. That's why I am still contending these arent counterfeit, they are just ones that MS had made and for some reason, $$$, decided to nix off the books. If MS says something is counterfeit, and they make a tool that says the PID key is counterfeit, they control the system and can say anything they want and no on can do a thing. It's like letting financial institutions do their own internal audits, they can say anything they want, and they did and look what happened. This MS OEM VLK non-MS keygenerated PID fake out is a little more subtle and wont raise as many legal eyebrows because end-users are only out couple hundred dollars, instead of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Anyway, This old dell sounds old and it is...I think I got it in about 2000 maybe originally. Everything has been upgraded a lot, graphics, ram only to 1.5GB though, and xp pro for a while. When I rebuilt and upgraded a couple years ago with the new HDD and xp pro and ram etc...this machine worked fine and it still would work fine if not for this problem. So that's almost a 10 year old machine with software that's over 7 years old doing cutting edge mechanical and structural engineering research design and analysis and I am still using basically the same thing software wise, just newer hardware and way better graphics on the machine the company just gave me.

    Next then. You are fully correct about the 'full retail', I agree and I know that, the point I was trying to make I guess was my own distaste for this capitalist price driven money hungry society that we live in at the total cost of the consumer. I know a retail version can be transferred and that's why it costs more. I'm not sure I agree it should cost as much more as it does but then again I think OEM versions should be transferable onto new computers if the old one fails as well. I mean, MS eula goes so far as to say you are not even allowed to upgrade a mobo in that computer because that constitutes a new computer basically, that's what I think is a little stiff, built in obsolescence. These OEM licenses are just throw aways.  I guess since I'm an engineer I hate built in obsolescence, that's the old generation of thinking.

    So since we are just renting these MS license, MS basically has full control. Here are things they can easily do:

    1-have companies build cheap a$$ junk computers so they fail in a couple years and then need to be replaced and thus more OEM license get sold.
    2-actually subsidize the above process in number 1 to make it happen even more.
    3-manufacture a huge number of OEM software and distribute, then at some future date simply say all of that software was actually counterfeit and pirated. It would be in a small way like the bank saying money you are depositing is counterfeit. Not much you could do, yes they would give you all kinds of contact info, just like MS has, provide all kinds of reports that the money is counterfeit, just like MS has, tell you they can maybe replace it if you can say exactly where you got it but they know that is harder than it sounds and a large %% of people can not do that and its not like it came straight from the actual counterfeiter anyway but though many different channels and from companies or people duped the same way, just like MS has. The main thing different is we dont buy money, we earn it....and we rent an MS software license, with the money we earn.

    Anyway---this is just a gripe session at this point. It feels good to gripe, banging away at the key board vents frustration, very good therapy.

    Well, MS did what they did and IMO they contracted the manufacture of these 'so-called counterfeit' xp disks, which makes them not counterfeit, and then decided a certain amount of them, either from one manufacturer or maybe several of the manufactures got nixed, but anyway they decided to cancel a certain amount of PID's and call them VLK, or non-MS keygenerated, non-valid, or whatever they want to call them, but in the end it means they were able to crush thousands upon hundreds of thousands of xp PID's, therefore causing all of those consumers to go out and purchase another license.

    Bottom line...individuals that were actually using fake or counterfeit PID's on purpose deliberately stealing, are not going to go out and purchase a genuine PID key, they never did and they never will.

    I would almost guarantee the only 'so-called fake' software is xp pro oem 2002 sp2 version. That being said, MS would have no problem taking all of the packages made by a certain manufacturer of there choice and calling all of those PID's counterfeit, it would just be to easy to do and no one could dispute. Only a handful of people would need ot know and they would all be heavily compensated to stay quiet. Larger more public companies have done worse things. Again this is all just my opinion and I have no facts to back anything up.




    Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:28 PM