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Reconfigure Network RRS feed

  • Question

  • Hello,
    We have our local cable company coming to install DVR's and a combo modem/wireless router.  I remember a couple years ago spending a bunch of time configuring our network to get things working, like our Vonage adapter and Home Server remote access.  Before the cable guy comes, I'm reviewing the settings I currently have to provide the tech the info (or configure it myself since there's no telling the IT level of the cable guy).  Here's the settings I see I have.  Perhaps someone can help me understand them:
    After the modem, the first thing on the network is the Vonage adapter 192.168.15.1.  It was recommended to put it first so it has priority.  I see I forwarded 
    ports to the Home Server 192.168.15.2 #'s 80, 443 and 4125.  My first question is, why do these have a "15" in the address while all my other computers and printers use a "2" in that place?  
    When I do an IP Config on the Server it tells me the address is 192.168.2.8.  I am able to reach the server in a browser by entering either address 192.168.15.2 and 192.168.2.8.  So I'm wondering, why the 2 addresses?
    Now in the Router, I have the same ports forwarded (80, 443 and 4125) to the server 192.168.2.8.  But why use the "2" instead of the "15" this time?
    I see I have the Lease Time is set to Forever for the IP addresses.  There's another setting in the Belkin Router that lists all the IP address for each computer and there's a button to Reserve the IP address.  I don't have any Reserved, I guess since I have the Lease set to Forever, correct?
    I don't know what settings the new modem/router will have so I just want to know if setting the Lease to Forever and Reserving the IP address does the same thing.
    Since the new modem is a combo wireless router, the Vonage adapter wont be first on the network anymore.  Should I disable the Port Forwarding on it?
    Is this a reason that it has a "15" in the address, because it's inline in the network and not parallel like the other computers and printers? I'm sure inline and parallel is the proper way to describe it :)
    Thanks for the help. Hopefully I have enough knowledge about this for when the tech comes by so it's a smooth transition.
    Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:12 PM

All replies

  • I'm assuming you are replacing your existing router (Belkin?) that routes your local 192.168. wired and wireless subnet to the Internet.

    I'm assuming your Vonage adapter is also routing and is between the WAN port on the Belkin and your existing modem. I.e., the WAN port of the Belkin connects to the LAN port of the Vonage and the WAN port of the Vonage connects to the LAN side of your existing router to the Internet. (Cable, DSL, whatever.)

    I'm assuming that your Belkin is providing DHCP though you don't explicitly say.

    Not sure what "putting the Vonage adapter first so it has priority" means but infer from the above that "they" want it this way so that they can internally give priority to their connections over connections thay are routing. This also probably makes their life easier for support.

    Inference follows:

    You probably see 192.168.1.2 ports 80, 443 and 4125 In the Belkin because WHS UPNP reqested them to be forwarded like this and the Belkin was the gateway it was using and was willing to respond to a WHS UPNP request to do so.

    You probably see ports 80, 443 and 4125 forwarded to your WHS machine in the Vonage because the Belkin, in turn, reqested them to be forwarded like this. You see it as .15.2 probably because it is doing network address translation from its "local" 192.168. net to the Belkin router to the separate 192.168. net it has on the WAN side to your existing modem.

    You are able to reach the server in a browser at either address since the 192.168.2.8 address is local and, since the 192.168.15.2 address is being treated as if it isn't, the Belkin is routing to the Vonage adapter which is doing NAT from from its 192.168.15.2 address back to the 192.168.2.8 address. Test this with the traceroute command. Expect that going to the 192.168.15.2 address has hops via both routers and the 192.168.2.8 address has no hops. Also look at ARP tables in the machine you are browsing from. Expect the 192.168.2.8 address to know the WHS machines MAC address and know nothing of the 192.168.15.2. Also the netstat -r command would show you the routing it is using.

    You probably don't have any IP addresses reserved in th eBelkin because there is no particular reason to do so. I'm suspecting having the lease set to not expire probably accomplishes the same thing. In any case, with UPNP setting up the interior port forwarding to WHS and all of the other magic stuff for name resolution on all of your networked devices, unless you KNOW you have a need for something to have a static address, you probably don't need to worry lease negotiation. All of that code is supposed to figure this stuff out automagically.

    Assuming you setup the newly modified network as I understand you to describe--where the new modem is doing your routing to the Internet and being your wireless gateway and, presumably, serving DHCP, and doing port forwarding besides and the Vonage adapter is just on the same network as all of your other wired network stuff--you can turn off port forwarding in the Vonage but may not need to. What you really do need to do is turn off the DHCP server in the Vonage so that it and your WHS machine and all others in the local net discover the new cable router as the DHCP server and get all of their gateway info from the cable router. Once over that hurdle (probably requires rebooting everything maybe more ethan once) WHS should do its UPNP thing with the cable router to get port forwarding back happy. If I were doing this and had any bad karma the second thing I'd try is to unplug the Vonage and then reboot everybody. Only when that's all happy would I plug the Vonage back into the network.

    Having one local network and one router between that network and the Internet is simpler and therefore better than having all these little networks connected together serially.

    Saturday, July 9, 2011 3:55 PM
  • Not sure what "putting the Vonage adapter first so it has priority" means but infer from the above that "they" want it this way so that they can internally give priority to their connections over connections thay are routing. This also probably makes their life easier for support.cal network and one router between that network and the Internet is simpler and therefore better than having all these little networks connected together serially.

    This is the reason. Vonage could care less about the rest of your network, but having their device first makes QoS management easier for them. My recommendation is to put the Vonage device after the OP's router, like this:

    internet → broadband modem → Belkin router → all other devices including Vonage device

    which is more or less what you've suggested. If the Belkin router has a way to configure QoS, the OP might play with those settings to see if he can improve voice quality.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Saturday, July 9, 2011 4:01 PM
    Moderator
  • I'm assuming you are replacing your existing router (Belkin?) that routes your local 192.168. wired and wireless subnet to the Internet.

    Yes

    I'm assuming your Vonage adapter is also routing and is between the WAN port on the Belkin and your existing modem. I.e., the WAN port of the Belkin connects to the LAN port of the Vonage and the WAN port of the Vonage connects to the LAN side of your existing router to the Internet. (Cable, DSL, whatever.)

    Yes

    I'm assuming that your Belkin is providing DHCP though you don't explicitly say.

    The Belkin has a "DHCP Client List" section so I assumes the answer would be yes.

    Not sure what "putting the Vonage adapter first so it has priority" means but infer from the above that "they" want it this way so that they can internally give priority to their connections over connections thay are routing. This also probably makes their life easier for support.

    Vonage wanted it first, before any router

    You probably see 192.168.1.2 ports 80, 443 and 4125 In the Belkin because WHS UPNP reqested them to be forwarded like this and the Belkin was the gateway it was using and was willing to respond to a WHS UPNP request to do so.

    WHS UPNP was not working for me.  I had to set up all this manually, which took me a while by doing research, reading forums and asking questions.  That's the purpose of this thread, so I can understand what I had to do a few years ago in case I have to do it again

    You probably see ports 80, 443 and 4125 forwarded to your WHS machine in the Vonage because the Belkin, in turn, reqested them to be forwarded like this. You see it as .15.2 probably because it is doing network address translation from its "local" 192.168. net to the Belkin router to the separate 192.168. net it has on the WAN side to your existing modem.

    This also was done manually.

    You are able to reach the server in a browser at either address since the 192.168.2.8 address is local and, since the 192.168.15.2 address is being treated as if it isn't, the Belkin is routing to the Vonage adapter which is doing NAT from from its 192.168.15.2 address back to the 192.168.2.8 address. Test this with the traceroute command. Expect that going to the 192.168.15.2 address has hops via both routers and the 192.168.2.8 address has no hops. Also look at ARP tables in the machine you are browsing from. Expect the 192.168.2.8 address to know the WHS machines MAC address and know nothing of the 192.168.15.2. Also the netstat -r command would show you the routing it is using.

    Not being a network guy, I'm not sure about traceroute, hops, NAT, ARP tables, netstat -r.   I realize you are trying to explain WHY I can reach the WHS via both addresses, but if it involves all that then perhaps I don't need to know :)  Unless there's a simplified answer :)

    You probably don't have any IP addresses reserved in th eBelkin because there is no particular reason to do so. I'm suspecting having the lease set to not expire probably accomplishes the same thing. In any case, with UPNP setting up the interior port forwarding to WHS and all of the other magic stuff for name resolution on all of your networked devices, unless you KNOW you have a need for something to have a static address, you probably don't need to worry lease negotiation. All of that code is supposed to figure this stuff out automagically.

    I remember setting the Lease not to expire so the WHS would have the same address when it gets rebooted, I believe it was so Remote Access would work properly but can't remember for sure.

    Assuming you setup the newly modified network as I understand you to describe--where the new modem is doing your routing to the Internet and being your wireless gateway and, presumably, serving DHCP, and doing port forwarding besides and the Vonage adapter is just on the same network as all of your other wired network stuff--you can turn off port forwarding in the Vonage but may not need to. What you really do need to do is turn off the DHCP server in the Vonage so that it and your WHS machine and all others in the local net discover the new cable router as the DHCP server and get all of their gateway info from the cable router. Once over that hurdle (probably requires rebooting everything maybe more ethan once) WHS should do its UPNP thing with the cable router to get port forwarding back happy. If I were doing this and had any bad karma the second thing I'd try is to unplug the Vonage and then reboot everybody. Only when that's all happy would I plug the Vonage back into the network.

    Well hopefully UPNP will do it's thing, but if doesn't, then at least I know what settings are needed.

    Having one local network and one router between that network and the Internet is simpler and therefore better than having all these little networks connected together serially.

    It defiantly sounds simplified having the Vonage adapter behind the router.  Will this eliminate the IP address with the "15" in it and all devises will have the same number (except the last one of course)?

    And Ken, thanks for your reply too. Since I'll be getting rid of the Belkin router and using the cable companies combo modem/wireless router, I hope their devise has good QoS configurability  (is that a word?).  I'll have no way of putting the Vonage adapter first.

    Thanks again for the help.  Anymore insight on this topic is appreciated!

    Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:27 PM
  • Here's maybe some more insight on this topic.
    Vonage wanted it first, before any router
    I'm no expert on how the VOIP guys assure QoS. (Do they do things that don't involve requesting special handling via some RFC defined service or other or do they just want to make sre they control your access to the net by functioning as a router between your LAN and the WAN connection? I know this stuff is all out there, I've just never had occasion to dabble with it.) Either way, I'm sure they are more assured of better results by getting it the way they were asking for it. OTOH, I'm betting they get installed in millions of environments like your future one where their device is behind a firewall router and does not have direct access to the network.
    WHS UPNP was not working for me.  I had to set up all this manually, which took me a while by doing research, reading forums and asking questions.  That's the purpose of this thread, so I can understand what I had to do a few years ago in case I have to do it again
    I'm not at all surprised--I was really wondering what the likelihood was that one device that had to do port forwarding would pass that knowledge upstream to another router that would also have to do port forwarding for it all to work. I'd never tried it but was skeptical it would work automagically when I wrote it.
    This also was done manually.
    As noted, this makes sense.
    Not being a network guy, I'm not sure about traceroute, hops, NAT, ARP tables, netstat -r.   I realize you are trying to explain WHY I can reach the WHS via both addresses, but if it involves all that then perhaps I don't need to know :)  Unless there's a simplified answer :)
    The simplified answer is that all those tools give you insight into the magic that goes on under the covers that, when it all works, you have no need to understand. Sometimes when you do "un-natural" things like putting two address translating routers in a row serially, you have to deal with some of this stuff. The fact that you could reach your WHS machine by both its local address and the intermediate one only shows that all this stuff is magic and was working.
    I remember setting the Lease not to expire so the WHS would have the same address when it gets rebooted, I believe it was so Remote Access would work properly but can't remember for sure.
    Depending on circumstances, WHS should have kept getting the 192.168.1.8 address and it would have kept working out. Given that the statically defined intermediate address translation/port forwarding would have broken remote access IF it had changed, then it seems like insurance to set it all so it never would change.
    Well hopefully UPNP will do it's thing, but if doesn't, then at least I know what settings are needed.
    Be careful assuming those settings would work in the new environment. Without understanding WHY this stuff works (the stuff of NAT and ARP, traceroute and subnets), just throwing stuff in various settings isn't always productive. This stuff is complicated for a reason.
    It defiantly sounds simplified having the Vonage adapter behind the router.  Will this eliminate the IP address with the "15" in it and all devises will have the same number (except the last one of course)?

    I don't know how the Vonage is setup or what expectations it will have for the network it operates in. It may, for instance, expect to be on 192.168.15. Even that wouldn't necessarily be a problem as everything else might be perfectly happy to ignore it there by using a different 192.168. subnet.

    My expectation is that you are moving to a very common topology and the Vonage stuff ought to be able to operate in such a topology or lots of their customers would tip over and call support and they Really Don't Want That. Likewise, however, if you have previously set up lots of "static" stuff (i.e., hard settings that override automatic discovery and configuration stuff like your hard set addresses and port forwarding) you may be in for a rough ride just plugging it in to your new router and you may end up having to go understand lots of stuff that's normally kept under the covers.

    As noted previously, I'd try to get everything besides the Vonage working with a minimum to ZERO manual interventions first. That means all your PCs including WHS get all their DHCP stuff from the new router and Just Work and your WHS remote access sets up its own port forwarding and remote access Just Works. Once you get all that happy, worry getting the Vonage in the mix. If it has a button or something to reset all settings to out-of-box defaults, I'd sure consider that if I didn't know exactly how and why it was setup the way it was previously.

    Saturday, July 9, 2011 11:40 PM