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Windows Home Server code name “Vail”– Update RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/windowshomeserver/

    When we first started designing Windows Home Sever code name “Vail” one of our initial focuses was to continue to provide support for multiple internal and external hard drives. Drive Extender provided the ability to take the small hard drives many small businesses and households may have acquired, and pool them together in a simple volume. During our current testing period for our SBS 2011 Essentials and Windows Home Server code name “Vail” products, we have received feedback from partners and customers about how they use storage today and how they plan to use it moving forward. Today large hard drives of over 1TB are reasonably priced, and freely available. We are also seeing further expansion of hard drive sizes at a fast rate, where 2Tb drives and more are becoming easy accessible to small businesses.

    When weighing up the future direction storage in the consumer and SMB market, the team felt the Drive Extender technology was not meeting our customer needs. Customers also told us that they wanted easier access to data stored on Drive Extender drives so they are able to view these files outside of Drive Extender. Therefore, moving forward we have decided to remove the Drive Extender technology from Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” (and Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials and Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 Essentials) which are currently in beta.

    While this removes the integrated ability for storage pooling of multiple hard drives and automated data duplication, we are continuing to work closely with our OEM partners to implement storage management and protection using industry standard RAID solutions, as well as other software solutions. This will provide customers greater choice as well as a seamless experience that will meet their storage needs. Customers will also have access to the in-built storage solutions Windows Server 2008 R2 provides for data protection, including software RAID support. We are also still delivering core features such as automated Server and PC backup, easy sharing of folders and files, Remote Web Access and simplified management without any expected changes.

    Target product availability is still H1 2011, and we expect to deliver a new beta without drive extender for Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” and Small Business Server 2011 Essentials early in the New Year.


    This post is "AS IS" and confers no rights. Jonas Svensson [MSFT] Windows Home Server Community Program Manager
    Windows Home Server Team Blog
    Connect Windows Home Server
    Windows Home Server
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:58 PM

All replies

  • The only standard raid systems I know of are called ZFS and LinuxRaid.  The other are all properity closed systems and you will have no chance of recovering data from failed units or volumes.

    All you had to do was take DE from V1 of Drive Extender and tidy it up - big fail MS on this and WP7. 

    I think it's about time I chucked in my MSDN and moved over to the opensource camp.  I guess it won't be long before you drop the ball on Exchange, Office and Windows 7, Server 2008

    I bet if you put DE up on codeplex we could do it for you.


    -- Free AV for WHS : http://whsclamav.sourceforge.net/
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:32 PM
  • Looks like I'll be reverting back to WHS V1 then, as I like drive extender and the ease of adding/removing additional storage as a pool, with automatic data replication for protection.

    MS have really dropped the ball on this one, as the previous posted has mentioned. Industry standard RAID solutions are too complex for most home users, and don't offer the ease of use in adding and removing storage.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:41 PM
  • This is a terrible, terrible idea.  The drive extender is one of the best features WHS has (had) going for it.   So what, people were expressing concerns about being able to retreive data from individual drives with DEv2 so you decide to throw out the baby with the bathwater?

    Looks like I'll either be sticking with WHSv1 or looking at one of the Linux based solutions.

     

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:02 PM
  • When weighing up the future direction storage in the consumer and SMB market, the team felt the Drive Extender technology was not meeting our customer needs. Customers also told us that they wanted easier access to data stored on Drive Extender drives so they are able to view these files outside of Drive Extender. Therefore, moving forward we have decided to remove the Drive Extender technology from Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” (and Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials and Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 Essentials) which are currently in beta.


    I for one think this is very good news. While I love (almost) everything else about WHS, I never liked the whole DE/Duplication framework because it seemed to create more problems than it solved.

    Prior to this announcement, I had pretty much made up my mind to stick with WHS1, because at least there the files are readable. My personal solution has been to run WHS in a virtual machine, with the VM files on RAID1, so I never used duplication (and will not miss it).

    Good news, IMHO.


    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:05 PM
  • When weighing up the future direction storage in the consumer and SMB market, the team felt the Drive Extender technology was not meeting our customer needs. Customers also told us that they wanted easier access to data stored on Drive Extender drives so they are able to view these files outside of Drive Extender. Therefore, moving forward we have decided to remove the Drive Extender technology from Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” (and Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials and Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 Essentials) which are currently in beta.


    I for one think this is very good news. While I love (almost) everything else about WHS, I never liked the whole DE/Duplication framework because it seemed to create more problems than it solved.

    Prior to this announcement, I had pretty much made up my mind to stick with WHS1, because at least there the files are readable. My personal solution has been to run WHS in a virtual machine, with the VM files on RAID1, so I never used duplication (and will not miss it).

    Good news, IMHO.


    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP


    I think you're probably in the minority with this opinion. I don't have tons of spare cash to throw around buying extra drives to be able to run RAID1 or RAID5. I really like the DE functinality and the ability to duplicate shares. It's saved me from dead drives on more than one occasion.

    MS should have stuck to the version of DE in V1 and incorporated that into V2.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:14 PM
  • This is technically a much better, sounder solution to the problem of duplication and data protection. There are people out there who are experts in this type of product and build RAID controllers as core to their business. No matter what RAID is never going to be MS core technology. So why not use that external expertise and concentrate on the software and user interface technology that would encourage the take up of this product.

    Having said that, the barrier to entry of this product is the level of complexity involved. While its true that most home servers are likely to be configured by some expert prior to installation, doesnt that defeat the purpose of such a product?

    Surely the vision for WHS is that Joe Public goes and buys a box, plugs it in and then just uses it. When they want more storage, they go and buy an external hard disk and just plg that in, and use it... Thats what Drive Extender offered and with its departure the level of complexity and configuration and barrier to entry rises. If we need to have experts configure the server prior to installation, then it might as well be a normal Windows Server 2008. If this was true then it could run a cut down version of Exchange, and become a mail server as well.

    This is not what our customers are asking for. Its been said many, many times to me. What my customers want is to plug this magic box in under the stairs and have it record their tv, and store media - as well as share their printers and internet connection, and still protect their data on laptops. Better integration of Media Center and Skydrive (which I currently do by using other products, or by custom development) is what the market is crying out for. If we had that, noone would care if Drive Extender was removed.

    So, I'm left wondering where MS see WHS server fitting into the overall product map.. It has massive potential, yet development effort seems to be concentrated on areas few are interested in. I assume DE is dropped because of some difficult obsticle or because some resource or timescale would be exceeded, so throw it out, save the time and money on this, and build what just about everyone that sells this product on to customers is asking for. If you need help, you have a very passionate community thats standing by to offer assistance. Please dont ignore them, and then still not deliver the wanted goods.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:17 PM
  • Considering that WHS is targeted for home users, and this will effectively remove an easy, consistent way to manage drives, what's the point any more?

    I'll be sticking with WHSv1 or a linux solution, as will my recommendation to anyone else who isn't looking to spend excessive time and money for a storage solution whos speed isn't of the utmost importance.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:21 PM
  • One of the major features in this product is the ability to add drives as needed for expansion.   With this gone I don't see how it can be a useful tool for consumers.  

    Sure, someone may have a 1TB drive but if it isn't duplicated they are at even greater risk of failure, which WHS is supposed to mitigate... I can't see this being a viable product without duplication and expansion.

    I think WHS / Vail is on it's way to being cancelled.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:26 PM
  • To summarize, WHS started and ended with only one version (V1). A new solution is in the works.
     
    The drive extender feature (as it work in V1) is basicly **the** reason I liked WHS. No worries about drive names anymore and when running out of space jsut adding a drive to the pool and all was doen.
     
    But.. surprise me with the other direction this is going into ;-).
    "Jonas Svensson -HSBS- [MSFT]" schreef in bericht news:4dd48652-9eb4-4c1e-9f2a-345af2bf31ba@communitybridge.codeplex.com...

    http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/windowshomeserver/

    When we first started designing Windows Home Sever code name �??Vail�?� one of our initial focuses was to continue to provide support for multiple internal and external hard drives. Drive Extender provided the ability to take the small hard drives many small businesses and households may have acquired, and pool them together in a simple volume. During our current testing period for our SBS 2011 Essentials and Windows Home Server code name �??Vail�?� products, we have received feedback from partners and customers about how they use storage today and how they plan to use it moving forward. Today large hard drives of over 1TB are reasonably priced, and freely available. We are also seeing further expansion of hard drive sizes at a fast rate, where 2Tb drives and more are becoming easy accessible to small businesses.

    When weighing up the future direction storage in the consumer and SMB market, the team felt the Drive Extender technology was not meeting our customer needs. Customers also told us that they wanted easier access to data stored on Drive Extender drives so they are able to view these files outside of Drive Extender. Therefore, moving forward we have decided to remove the Drive Extender technology from Windows Home Server Code Name �??Vail�?� (and Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials and Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 Essentials) which are currently in beta.

    While this removes the integrated ability for storage pooling of multiple hard drives and automated data duplication, we are continuing to work closely with our OEM partners to implement storage management and protection using industry standard RAID solutions, as well as other software solutions. This will provide customers greater choice as well as a seamless experience that will meet their storage needs. Customers will also have access to the in-built storage solutions Windows Server 2008 R2 provides for data protection, including software RAID support. We are also still delivering core features such as automated Server and PC backup, easy sharing of folders and files, Remote Web Access and simplified management without any expected changes.

    Target product availability is still H1 2011, and we expect to deliver a new beta without drive extender for Windows Home Server Code Name �??Vail�?� and Small Business Server 2011 Essentials early in the New Year.


    This post is "AS IS" and confers no rights. Jonas Svensson [MSFT] Windows Home Server Community Program Manager
    Windows Home Server Team Blog
    Connect Windows Home Server
    Windows Home Server

    Have a nice day!
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:45 PM
  • Wow.

    Thanks for the update Jonas.

    I must say I have been pretty vocal at times about some aspects of the new DE in Vail.  But I will say I am disappointed that they couldn't be worked through, as one of the major benefits of running WHS was the ability to mix and match different capacity drives, add and remove new drives all in a single pool.  I don't think RAID is the answer, as it removes this flexibility and means WHS as a product doesn't differentiate from many other server/NAS RAID solutions.

    Good luck with the changes, and I will give the revised "Vail" another try when it's available for testing.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:26 PM
  • If the nett effect of this announcement is that we have lost dynamically expandable storage, then this is a massive backwards step, and a tactical mistake, IMO.

    As many others have mentioned, thisfeature was the biggest draw of the product, and a unique selling point.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:36 PM
  • Ok, so what does this mean for Data or Folder Duplication going foward?

    Will we have to go into WHS and manually assign the different physical drives to various storage pools and then assign various pools as "Duplication" or will be left to implement whatever duplication strategy that we want?

     

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:32 PM
  • No Drive Extender = No Duplication. If you want duplication, or some other high availability type solution, buy an OEM server that includes that capability (if any are released in the consumer space), look for an add-in that implements one for you, or roll your own.
    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:35 PM
    Moderator
  • No Drive Extender = No Duplication. If you want duplication, or some other high availability type solution, buy an OEM server that includes that capability (if any are released in the consumer space), look for an add-in that implements one for you, or roll your own.
    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)


    Thanks Ken...

    Oddly enough I just ordered a new Intel Atom D525 Board/CPU Combo from New Egg last night so that I could load Vail Beta over the long Thanksgiving weekend and experiment

     

    Now I’m wondering like others what the future of Vail is. I question its viability as a Consumer Product at this point but I will wait for the next beta refresh to find out.

     


    Karl Schmider
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:50 PM
  • Hmmm, I've been waiting for months for the new version of WHS before purchasing a home server solution.  I'm not sure I would like it without DE (as a matter of fact, I know I won't).  The good news is that I can now go and figure out a solution before Christmas without feeling I'll be missing out on Vail in a few months (if it even ever comes out now).
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:53 PM
  • On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:35:26 +0000, Ken Warren [MVP] wrote:

    other high availability type solution, buy an OEM server that includes that capability (if any are released in the consumer space), look for an add-in that implements one for you, or roll your own.

    Not necessarily the case at all Ken. Windows Server has had built-in
    software RAID for years now.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:58 PM
  • Software RAID: If it's not delivered preconfigured by an OEM, or configured by an add-in, it's a "roll your own" solution.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:11 PM
    Moderator
  • so what is the difference b/w vail and ms storage server now?  sounds like they killed vail and will be promoting msss. 

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:41 PM
  • Software RAID does not allow easily to add storage later when needed. Different size disks are not well supported either. And besides RAID 1 all arrays spanning over more than two disks are not allowing you to read the data from a single disk, like you can with WHS 1. So if that RAID is lost by some reason, all the data stored on it is gone.

    In my opinion the solution from WHS v.1 was almost sufficient - the improvements I would have liked are stuff like:

    • easier reintegration of lost disks (or clones of them)
    • support of NTFS encryption and previous versions
    • 64 bit implementation for better performance
    • removal of the cosmetic size bug in local Explorer and mapped network drives

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:54 PM
    Moderator
  • While I did not like DE in Vail(high overhead, poor performance, drives not readable in other computers) I do think DE in v1 is great.  The entire reason I use WHS is because of the drive pooling and data protection. I just wish it used some form of RAID other than the traditional(see unraid, flexraid, drobo)

    Being able to use drives of any size and pool those drives is an absolute must.  I have a ____ case that supports 22 hard drives. In it I have 2x 500gb,  4x 750gb, 6x 1tb, 2x 1.5tb and 2x 2tb.  I just buy whatever is the biggest drive available when I need more space. Plug it in and add it to the pool and away I go.  I have 5.2tb of movies/tv shows, alone.  I'm not going to now split that across multiple raid arrays and have multiple similar shares to work with on my network.

    For me, everything that was special about WHS has been removed.  DE in vail was not the right path. But neither is scrapping it entirely. There are better options.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:13 PM
  • I've said this on the post and I'll say it again: Pooled Drives with easy duplication as seen in WHS v1 is *the* reason to use WHS.

    It makes things SO. SIMPLE. for the average user. I'm a network admin I prefer it to a Windows Server because there is no hassle and it just works. I add in a drive, boom: more storage. I remove a drive: Boom, no lost data. No worrying about drive letters or where files reside: IT. JUST. WORKS. After having shown this utopia of drive management to users you're going to take it away because it doesn't quite work right for your /other/ server products? What next: No bare-metal restore CD installs because that's not a feature that Small Business customers will use? Honestly.

    The biggest problem is that you're requiring WHS v2 to be in the same class as SBS and WSS. It's a home product; it REALLY doesn't need whatever was breaking in those OSes. WHS is good BECAUSE it was separated from Server 2003. It's good BECAUSE it has an easy to user interface. 

    Drive Extender/Pooled Drives/Duplicated Data is probably the finest and most interesting portion of a product to come out of Microsoft in the last 10 years, and now you're taking it away. I honestly cannot believe this.

    Over the life of my WHS, I have removed and added drives on a number of occasions. The ease of this has allowed me to extend my storage when I finally did have enough money for some larger hard drives. Further, it's enabled me to build a small computer with a ton of space: I only have 4 drives in a uATX case for my WHS. If I had to have those as a RAID5, I'd lose a quarter of my storage space. If I had to do it as a RAID1, I'd lose half.

    This is a monumentally bad decision. Let Vail stand on its own and not suffer because full-blown Server OSes can't handle a wondrous feature aimed at a home user.

    Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:44 PM
  • This is very good news. Even though I'm currently using WHS and highly dependn on Drive Extender I'm very happy that they are going to take it out from the new version. You all most probably forgot how inefficiently and clumsy Demigrator service is running, eating all available resources and just making your HDDs busy all the time?

    I'm sure there will be some substitute for backups. I'm personally very happy with new features of Vail. 


    C#,WPF Best Practices http://rubenhak.com
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:29 AM
  • While this removes the integrated ability for storage pooling of multiple hard drives and automated data duplication, we are continuing to work closely with our OEM partners to implement storage management and protection using industry standard RAID solutions..

    I feel like I'm in bad movie with a "good-cop" & "bad-cop". 

    Bad-cop: With WHS V1, RAID is too complicated for the intended user.

    Good-cop: WHS Vail, RAID is great and will solve all your problems.

    MS you are sending out conflicting messages!

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:34 AM
  • It's anyone's guess what the final product will yield with respect to "storage management and protection" as a replacement for DE.  As a practical matter, though, it would seem this announcement obviates further testing (for me at least) of the current Vail refresh; the changes are bound to be significant.

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 1:32 AM
  • For the SBS solutions, I *might* see how DE might be a detriment, but for WHS, removing *the* defining feature makes it a complete no-go to me or to the people I've recommended WHS.  If no equivalent solution is used in Vail (OEM and/or RAID don't count, for multiple reasons, one of which is complexity), I will not recommend the more expensive Vail solutions to people and instead recommend a cheaper product.  Thankfully, I have a WHS1 license, which I will use until I can move to another platform that does support the features of DE.  I've been using WHS since the first beta of V1, and to say I'm disappointed and shocked at this announcement is an understatement.  Microsoft has made so many fantastic products as of late, and to see them make this absolutely bone-headed decision is disheartening to say the least.
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:24 AM
  • Please see the WHS blog http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/windowshomeserver/ for more information but with drive extender gone, and with the folks in charge making really poor decisions on the feature set for Vail, I am unfortunately forced to revert back to WHS V1.  Hopefully they can get someone to start listening to the clients otherwise Vail will be forever known as the OS which must not be named.   (Oops sorry that was Vista and we all know how that turned out).

     

    Good Luck All and Happy Holidays.

    • Merged by Ken WarrenModerator Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:37 AM no need for additional threads on this topic
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:17 AM
  • Microsoft, you are  ship adrift without direction or planning.   These kinds of outrageous mistakes are why you are so disrespected by your customers and so many of us are moving to greener pastures, ala Apple.

    To state that DE was not meeting our customers needs shows how COMPLETELY disconnected you are from what your customers actually do need.   The ONLY reason for using WHS was DE v1.  It was a fantastic way to pool drives without the risks of RAID issues.  Now what do we have?   

    You seem, to me, to be acting out some kind of petulant child routine by dropping DE altogether.   With the well deserved criticism of DE v2 in Vail you've gone and just thrown a tantrum and thrown the whole thing out the window without considering the fact that you should have gone back and fixed it right, not build something that was obviously prone to failure just by it's very design.  

    V1 is fine, it works, we ALL use it and like it.   Please take a deep breath, think, and deliver your customers the solution you promised and we deserve.  Bring back V1 with fixes.

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:23 AM
  • With these changes to Vail, WHS/Vail is effectively dead imo.   There's simply no reason to deploy it any longer.


    I'll be taking my new hardware and moving my existing WHS v1 to that new machine to improve performance and will not be moving to Vail.  


    Very disappointing.

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:29 AM
  • While I am quite disappointed with this announcement, I actually find this rather amusing at the same time. I want to point out an old WHS Team Blog post, from August 2008, http://blogs.technet.com/b/homeserver/archive/2008/08/11/why-raid-is-not-a-consumer-technology.aspx.

    The title is quite blunt, RAID is not a consumer technology . But wait, there's more! Here's a nice quote:

    "Those same geeks, when encountering Windows Home Server for the first time, often ask the question "Why doesn't Windows Home Server use RAID?".  The simplest answer is RAID sucks as the basis for a consumer storage product."

    Of course this is what many of us knew all along. Proper RAID controller cards get expensive fast, it can be a pain to add or remove storage, and simply cannot be set up by users with little or no technical knowledge. It's made clear that the purpose of WHS was to not only make things better, but simple too.

    Windows Home Server storage system design requirements
    • Must be extremely simple to use. Must not add any new concepts or terminology average consumers would not understand. Simple operations should be simple and there should not be any complex operations.
    • Must be infinitely & transparently extendible. Users should be able to just plug in more hard drives and the amount of storage available should just grow accordingly. There should be no arbitrary limits to the kinds of hard drives used. Users should be able to plug in any number of drives.  Different brands, sizes, and technologies should be able to be mixed without the user having to worry about details.
    • All storage must be accessible using a single namespace. In other words, no drive letters .  Drive letters are a 1970's anachronism and must be squashed out of existence!
    • The storage namespace must be prescriptive. In other words, our research told us that consumers want guidance on where to store stuff. Our storage system needs to be able to tell users where photos go. Where music goes. Etc...
    • Must be redundant & reliable. There are two components in every modern computer that are guaranteed to fail: fans and hard drives. Because they have moving parts,  Windows Home Server must be resilient to the failure of one or more hard drives.
    • Must be compatible. Compatible with existing software, devices, disk drives, etc...
    • Must have great performance.
    • Must be secure.
    • Must enable future innovation . Both the amount of storage consumers are using, and capacity/$ are growing at Moore's Law like rates (while nothing else really is). This creates a discontinuity in the industry and an opportunity for innovation. The storage system must operate at a higher level of abstraction to enable rich software innovation (file level vs. block level).

    Now with DE being removed from Vail, it simply no longer meets WHS's own design objectives. Vail no longer has useful purpose in the context of the WHS product. Vail showed a lot of potential, and easily could have been an exceptional product, but now it can only be mediocre at best, and for those of us with WHSv1, there is no incentive whatsoever to upgrade.

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:53 AM
  • God it got removed.
    I would love its feature, cause I don't even use the raid.....
    I would never use raid in my life.
    Hope there are better features then raid.....

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:30 AM
  • For me this is a dealbreaker.  I no longer need to plan for migration from WHS v1 to Vail.  Problem is, I will need to look for a long-term replacement for WHS.  This is a deeply disappointing decision which suggests real cluelessness as to why people use WHS.  I could have understood if they took time out to consider an easier way to migrate storage, but just to abandon me as a customer?

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:00 PM
  • I have to throw my two cents in on this as well.  I have recommended WHS to a lot of very non-technical people.  People who just worry about their backup solution.  It was awesome that they could purchase the appliance, take it home and plug it in.  When they ran low on space because they were backup up multiple PCs and moving all their family VHS tapes to digital files they would just hop down to the store, buy any external USB drive they liked and just plug it in.  Two minutes later after running through the console they were up and running.  Unless RAID technology has gotten a LOT better the barrier for adding new storage is just going to be too high for many of these folks. 

    When they say they've spoken to where the SMB and consumer I think there in lies the problem.  WHS when it first came out was a CONSUMER product.  Some small businesses figured out it could be used very easily for a backup solution and so I say, ROCK ON to them; however, what this led to those same SMB people asking for more business like features in the product.  I feel like this is taking WHS away from the consumer roots it had.  Now, that being said, it would be VERY interesting to see the demographic of who is actually using WHS.  If it is primarily people who understand what RAID really is then maybe this isn't a bad move overall; however, if the majority of the consumers are people like my parents, then I think this is a very, very bad move indeed (including the fact that it means my technical support demands would get increased). 


    - Mike Wood http://mvwood.com | http://nplus1.org | http://cinnug.org
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:22 PM
  • If it is primarily people who understand what RAID really is then maybe this isn't a bad move overall; however, if the majority of the consumers are people like my parents, then I think this is a very, very bad move indeed (including the fact that it means my technical support demands would get increased). 

    I've said this before: I know personally (in the "Hi, Joe! How'd you like the Eagles game?" phone call sense, so frequent personal contacts) several dozen people who are running Windows Home Server. Of those, some are more technically inclined, some less so. Two of them have more than a TB of data in the storage pool, and I'm one of the two. I firmly believe that this is a typical consumer distribution. Overall, probably there are more HP units in small businesses serving as backup tools and simple file servers than there are in homes being used by consumers.

    At the end of the day, this was a business-oriented decision; see Paul Thurrott's blog post here for more information on why the decision was made. Note that this is information that MVPs were not privy to. We were told several weeks ago that Drive Extender was being removed, but it was basically a "Please go evangelize for us so we don't get too bad a drubbing" type of conversation. Well, Microsoft doesn't pay me to evangelize the product (seriously; I probably spend several hundred hours a year on this, and all the nice stuff Microsoft does for me amounts well under minimum wage), I do it because I like Windows Home Server. I think this is a huge mistake, made so that the code base will better support business deployment, and ignoring the needs of consumers. Microsoft is going to get lambasted in the media (they already are), and I think they deserve every bit of the abuse they'll receive...


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:35 PM
    Moderator
  • The WHS aimed incredibly challenging to merge several purposes.
    First WHS as a server, i.e as a availability device in general, which provides for accessability, performance, throughput.
    Second a "backup"-device, i.e. a kind of backup-server.
    These are two incompatible goals. Hence the faint and fuzzy terms about, what actually is the purpose of the duplication.
    Duplication also enticing the user to believe the data already on the safe side. But in a Consumer environment secure data (= backup) is only data that reside on not-spinning drives (or bluray discs).
    In addition, Microsoft has with DE thankless task imposed to make lousy users hardware safer than it is. Thus, Microsoft should tend to stand for shortcomings that not to answer for Microsoft. And that had to be implemented in DE2 CRC and similar techniques, speaks volumes.
    A look in the relevant fora sufficient see WHS is often used in conjunction with some sort of hardware recipes with leftovers. People apparently believe that still a WHS tinker easily from old scrap hardware. I don't think this is a desirable consumer audience. These people do this today, tomorrow that secure Microsoft customers are not anyway.
    The duplication is also much too inflexible, adjustable only per share.

    In addition the temporal aspect of extensibility, scalability of storage system.
    In DE2 a striping system had to be introduced ultimately software compatibility. But such a system is not well tolerated with the demand for scalability of the storage system. Because under striping the probability and the extent of potential damage increases with each additional hard disk, except that the distribution is limited data on two hard disks (or so). But this creates an enormous administrative burden.

    DE an inherently very delicate technique makes probably in substance use by dynamic volumes. Availability (performance), security and flexibility (scalability) are goals you cannot optimize together, especially not under an easy-to-use maxime. I appreciate the availability of the super target of the merger of specified sub-objectives in advance was not sufficiently screened. Most of the WHS features need DE not. But the simple storage scalability problem will remain probably unresolved.
    Yet I welcome that DE is abandoned, a contradictory and half-hearted project. And I look forward to a new clear and strong WHS.

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:46 PM
  • Now that the only reason for renewing my TechNet Pro subscription is gone, thanks for the $250 holiday present.  Maybe a new hardware RAID card.
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:28 PM
  • What a way to start the Holidays...  I'm pretty disappointed as well.  I sacrificed storage on my WHS V1 server to install and test Vail.  Put all my movies on an external 2TB drive and just left the Drive Extended drives with my home PC backups and duplicated folders in the V1 box.

    DE on WHS V1 was pretty cool and I have to agree a big reason I recommended it to other people I knew as well.  Home PC backup is great and has saved my butt at least half dozen times since starting to use WHS.  I used to use Drive Image and then Norton ghost 12 but no need with WHS on duty.  Folder duplication of valuable files - music, family videos, and photographs mainly was something that made me feel secure.  External backup of these files to a non DE drive I could store somewhere else was also great.  All very cool and extremely useful. I love WHS.  

    When adding drives I tried to stick with the same size large 1TB drives and the low power "green" variety to save electricity since it runs 24x7 so just throwing in another spare 500 GB drives (which I've moved to my *lesser* home PC's for local storage) wasn't something I wanted to do as normal practice.  But I would like to have added an internal 2 TB drive as the become more reliable / available.

    Not being that familiar with RAID I thought one option was a JBOD array?  Is that not possible in Vail?  Would it mean that the disks need to be pre-configured prior to installing WHS V2, or perhaps during the installation process, then you are stuck with what you started with?  And adding storage down the line is a lot tougher.  Is that what I'm hearing?

    Bottom line is ease of PC backup and secure reliable file storage with the ability to increase capacity when required is my bottom line and I imagine a common requirement regardless of your affiliation.  Hoping V2 keeps that in tact regardless of the internal details.

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:01 PM
  • You do realize that if you continue in this folly that you will remove the only feature that qualifies this as a "Home" product. I suggest removing the Home from the name, and just call it Windows Server... wait, you have one of those already, correct? 

    If you intend to kill this product then just have the backbone to tell your (until this point) loyal and enthusiastic user base. Just don't expect us to watch you homogenize these products and be fooled into thinking that WHS is still a consumer oriented product (our ENTIRE reason for wanting it).

    The ONLY people that will support your decision are IT guys that already have the RAID where-with-all to not be fazed by suddenly having these burdens thrust on us. You will alienate and confuse every other existing customer, and they will find non-Microsoft products to fill the void. Which is tragic, as DE and WHSv1 are really something special.

    If you don't care about the existing customer base (Too small? I've never seen statistics...). Then at least have the backbone to just rename the damn product and distance yourself from WHS's original stated objectives, which are NOT fulfilled by your new plan.

    -Graham

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:21 PM
  • I wouldn't be surprised *at all* if there will not be a next WHS at all. The signals are rather clear (at least for me)  : We don't see the consumer branch to be taken seriously after all. I see this a just a pre -announcement of that since I'm sure about a solution for the business branches of this tree, but I'm very unsure about the WHS direction targetted in this. I would have way more faith in this announcement being issued together with a new DE-less beta build. Just to proof is doing what they (seems to ; kind of) promise right now.
     
    If it is primarily people who understand what RAID really is then maybe this isn't a bad move overall; however, if the majority of the consumers are people like my parents, then I think this is a very, very bad move indeed (including the fact that it means my technical support demands would get increased). 

    I've said this before: I know personally (in the "Hi, Joe! How'd you like the Eagles game?" phone call sense, so frequent personal contacts) several dozen people who are running Windows Home Server. Of those, some are more technically inclined, some less so. Two of them have more than a TB of data in the storage pool, and I'm one of the two. I firmly believe that this is a typical consumer distribution. Overall, probably there are more HP units in small businesses serving as backup tools and simple file servers than there are in homes being used by consumers.

    At the end of the day, this was a business-oriented decision; see Paul Thurrott's blog post here for more information on why the decision was made. Note that this is information that MVPs were not privy to. We were told several weeks ago that Drive Extender was being removed, but it was basically a "Please go evangelize for us so we don't get too bad a drubbing" type of conversation. Well, Microsoft doesn't pay me to evangelize the product (seriously; I probably spend several hundred hours a year on this, and all the nice stuff Microsoft does for me amounts well under minimum wage), I do it because I like Windows Home Server. I think this is a huge mistake, made so that the code base will better support business deployment, and ignoring the needs of consumers. Microsoft is going to get lambasted in the media (they already are), and I think they deserve every bit of the abuse they'll receive...


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)

    Have a nice day!
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:22 PM
  • I guess WHS is/was considered a consumer-oriented-pain in the Business-product-area  and the DE-removal is just a good excuse to dump it later on before it was supposed to go RTM. It's a phase-out-strategy I don't like since it affects (Paul Thurrot say's "it takes out the heart of WHS) a product (V1) I like very much.
    Btw, I never saw any benefit for me in V2 (despite what the marketing-mill tried to make me believe).
     
     
    But.I hope they will keep on doing small-upgrades to V1 without needing a V2/3/4 etc. that doesn't bring anythign really new at all. SO MS, just keep on improving V1 by Powerpack 4,5,6,7,8 etc. I bet this will bring you back on track again and consumers may take you seriously again (slllloowwwly..)
     

    You do realize that if you continue in this folly that you will remove the only feature that qualifies this as a "Home" product. I suggest removing the Home from the name, and just call it Windows Server... wait, you have one of those already, correct? 

    If you intend to kill this product then just have the backbone to tell your (until this point) loyal and enthusiastic user base. Just don't expect us to watch you homogenize these products and be fooled into thinking that WHS is still a consumer oriented product (our ENTIRE reason for wanting it).

    The ONLY people that will support your decision are IT guys that already have the RAID where-with-all to not be fazed by suddenly having these burdens thrust on us. You will alienate and confuse every other existing customer, and they will find non-Microsoft products to fill the void. Which is tragic, as DE and WHSv1 are really something special.

    If you don't care about the existing customer base (Too small? I've never seen statistics...). Then at least have the backbone to just rename the damn product and distance yourself from WHS's original stated objectives, which are NOT fulfilled by your new plan.

    -Graham


    Have a nice day!
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:30 PM
  • I have had some problems with too vague error reporting from a failing drive in v1, so I was hoping v2 would just continue to make DE and other aspects more robust and user friendly. Instead, this is a major step backwards in consumer level viability, essentially removing the user friendly aspects of the OS and turning this into just another server operating system. I'm so disappointed that its hard to concentrate. Why take such a good thing a spoil it so?

    There is simply no value to WHS without Drive Extender. It is the entire reason most of us chose WHS over a RAID based solution or a simple backup drive. Its the ONLY reason I've been able to recommend this product to less technical users. Its practically the only Microsoft product I've seen people wowed by in the last 5 years. That is, until I got my Windows Phone 7 (which is excellent).

    I remember someone implying there were technical limitations to using the existing DE in v2, can anyone reiterate those?

    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:39 PM
  • > I have had some problems with too vague error reporting from a failing drive in v1,
     
    Good workaround for me is the free Acronis Drive Monitor. It does a good job (although it keeps turning on the Acronis backup alerts after setting them to Disable, but I'm used to that now).
     

    Have a nice day!
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:49 PM
  • ... The ONLY people that will support your decision are IT guys that already have the RAID where-with-all to not be fazed by suddenly having these burdens thrust on us. ...
    Not even all of us. :)

    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:42 PM
    Moderator
  • Didn't read all the posts but guess it doesn't matter anyways.  WHS was apparently too much of a niche consumer product.  Sure the consumers who use it were passionate about it but oh well. RIP WHS . Guess my dabbling with unraid, drobo, and freenas are gonna pay off after all.  Whatever.
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:56 PM
  • My next question would what will happen to the Vail Beta that we already have installed?

    For instance the EULA on my machine states "The term of this agreement is until January 10, 2011 (10/01/2011), or commercial release of the software, whichever is first."

    Assuming that the next if any Beta Refresh not be available until after 1/10/2011 will my current copy expire on that date?

    Assuming that the current Beta Track with DE v2 is now dead what are the chances Microsoft will send out some sort of "Kill Signal" prior to 1/10/2011 effectively rendering our Beta Refreshes dead?

    Thanks


    Karl Schmider
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 8:37 PM
  • Karl, the Vail beta you already have will expire. No question about that. When it expires, you will probably lose access to the data you have on your Vail server, most likely permanently (because a future beta would almost certainly not have DE).

    Please back up your data before that happens.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:06 PM
    Moderator
  • I must say I'm disappointed.  I have a couple of systems with RAID5, and if a drive dies, it will be rebuilt by the system.  If the system dies, the same system has to built, whether hardware or software, to access the data.  How is this different from DE in Vail?  I "killed" drives in Vail testing, and the system rebuilt the data pool, even though I killed a 1TB drive and replaced it with a 2TB drive. If I did this in my RAID5 system, I would not benefit from the larger capacity.

    DE does permit assorted drives, added at any time, where the RAID systems are more limited.  I think people got spoiled by the DE in WHS v1, where the data are available outside the box, even though drive usage was far from balanced.

    I've recommended WHS to family and friends, who know how to turn computers on and off, but if something goes wrong, they need help.  I hope that WHS v1 continues to be available if Vail either dies or depends on RAID.

    Thursday, November 25, 2010 1:21 AM
  • I'm sure glad they announced this today. Saves the money I was about to drop on parts to build my homeserv2 for Vail.

    Mind-numbing. They spent three+ years defending the DEM pooled approach as better for "average users" than less flexible "real" RAID solutions, poured who knows how much scarce R&D into implementing DEM v2 in a way more integrated with the OS, took a lot of grief for the block duplication and inability to read the disks as stock NTFS, and so they just punt the whole thing. They say how great this will be when, except for the multi TB video servers with lots of unduplicated movies, this is clearly not true.

    Sad.

    Thursday, November 25, 2010 2:36 AM
  • Hi

    An interesting discussion about the DE issue.

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2122405

     


    Jack, MVP-Networking. www.EZLAN.NET
    Thursday, November 25, 2010 2:36 AM
  • Yeah.
    I thought this WHS means exactly as it names?
    "WINDOWS HOME SERVER".
    "HOME SERVER" !!!!!
    That means consumer for used at "HOME", right?
    Is this WHS Original purpose?
    Or has now it has lost it's purpose?
    Cause normally, regular consumers like me, never ever tries to bother with RAID.
    And I'm sure people knows some problems that RAID consists?
    And not even have much knowledge of configuring or trying the RAID?

    Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:29 AM
  • I should add, as one of the former Money MVPs, that this kind of decision--shying away from hard or expensive development and saying "trust us, this is what the market wants and it is good"--became self-fulfilling prophecy for the ultimate death of the product. They couldn't make the business case for the investment in $s and talent so they made basically pointless "upgrades" that, net, set the product back. Nobody bought it. So they couldn't make the business case to do any better.  A couple of these cycles and swirling down the hole it went.
    Thursday, November 25, 2010 4:13 AM
  • Well I lied.. I said I would quit this forum months ago because of the new DE and the problematic nature of its design. Today I am back not to to say "I told you so" but rather to see how this will be resolved. WHS v1 was such a great product for it's time and I still believe there is a place for it. I have spent over 6 months learning and teaching myself all the operating systems which are compatible with ZFS. I will never trust my data to any system - harware or software - that is not based on ZFS.

    I challenge Microsoft to improve ZFS to the point where it meets all the criteria that was envisioned for DE v2. Microsoft should do what microsoft does best... intergrate and design a windows GUI to make ZFS simple. Improve the technology to use dissimilar disks and allow expansion one drive at a time. This would give Microsoft a world class storage solution without starting from scratch. Most if not all parts of ZFS are open source and they could licence  the parts they need if there were a challenge.

     

    Hey what do I know?

     

    WF

    Thursday, November 25, 2010 5:08 AM
  • Well, this just tells me that M$ really did not have WHS V2 in mind for the home user (Who don't have the resources that Businesses have) and that the underlaying truth was that M$ really wanted to extend this to the business market and to ____ with the home user all along, and M$ can push cloud and a monthly subscription base generating more $$$$ to line their pockets with. As Vail without DE has no place for the home user that WHS was intended for in the first place.

    So, it looks like the little people are SOL.

    Opensource is looking better and better.

    Thursday, November 25, 2010 6:49 AM
  • I heard about this yesterday and felt compelled to post my disappointment with this decision.  Drive extender and duplication are the main reasons I have a WHS machine.  Without being able to easily add storage with the redundancy of duplication, I can't think of a reason to go with WHS Vail.  This saddens me, as I've been really looking forward to upgrading my current WHS server.  I guess, I'll stay with that as long as I can and then go with one of the cheaper and smaller NAS devices available.

    I hope this direction will be reconsidered.  WHS is my favorite and most used technical product.  And with this one announcement, I will likely abandon it - very unfortunate.

    Friday, November 26, 2010 3:57 PM
  • Thank you Jonas for the post.

     

    I do not see any functionality of DE that cannot be recreated with good GUI and robocopy.  

     

    Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:28 PM
  • The ability to have an arbitrary collection of file shares stored on an arbitrary collection of disparate disks with seamless expansion of capacity by adding spindles to the pool, and zero administrative effort to align the shares to specific hardware as the amount of data stored changes over time, can be recreated with a good GUI and robocopy? Really? If they couldn't make DEv2 work, I'd sure like to know who's going to write all the code to drive robocopy to do what DEv1 can.
    Sunday, November 28, 2010 7:33 PM
  • Wow...  I must say I had some problems with DEv1.

    DEv2 - I liked it - I was able to put some of the no-no files like Microsoft Money files back on my server and access them over the network.  Since I have a modest amount of data on my server (under 2GB) I was able to use the built in backup function to rotate drives offsite so I was not too concerned about the striping technique.

    I can't believe the feature is being dropped.  It is so nice to be able to cycle in new larger disks to increase storage whenever needed.

    Since I was using VAIL on my only server I decided to get my data off and figure out a path forward.  Here is what I did.

    • Setup Server 2008R2
    • Setup WHS V1 in Hyper-V (gave it access to a 1TB drive) for client Backups (This is the one feature of WHS I find impossible to replicate with other solutions) and Remote Access
    • Created a spanned volume 2TB in size for my data shares in Server 2008R2
    • Set server backup so I can still rotate my drives offsite as before
    • Setup IIS
    • Used Whiist to put links on my WHSv1 Remote access page which get NAT'd through my router to the Server 2008R2
    • Used Jalbum to create a nice photo album for my family - Photo album in Vail is really nice but this works good as well
    • Setup Smooth Streaming and Encoder 4 on Server 2008R2
    • Used Whiist to link to another page on Server 2008R2 with Silverlight smooth streaming for various videos I might want my family to see
    • All the stuff on Server 2008R2 is secured via SSL and Basic Authentication so I think it is just as safe as the VAIL site was

    So far I am happy with the setup - Not sure VAIL will do much for me without drive extender.  I will probably just run it in Hyper-V (If I can get it through Technet) once released to have the newer client backup stuff.

    Somehow I am beginning to doubt we will even see VAIL make it to release.

     

    Monday, November 29, 2010 7:05 AM
  • The removal of DE is terribly disappointing.  To echo others on this thread – built in folder duplication and the simplicity of adding storage were critical issues for me.  Looks like I’m sticking with WHS V1 unless this changes.  Windows HOME Server is beginning to feel more like a business class product rather than a consumer product.  This is unfortunate.  Microsoft – please reconsider this move.

    Monday, November 29, 2010 2:42 PM
  • "I bet if you put DE up on codeplex we could do it for you."

    Without a doubt. MS developers could not even do a decent job of their NNTP Bridge.... the codeplex community had to do it instead.

    Art (artfudd) Folden
    ------------------------------
    "Al West" wrote in message news:e23e0ea4-280e-43a2-bc32-03c3a5e1bd5e@communitybridge.codeplex.com...

    The only standard raid systems I know of are called ZFS and LinuxRaid.  The other are all properity closed systems and you will have no chance of recovering data from failed units or volumes.

    All you had to do was take DE from V1 of Drive Extender and tidy it up - big fail MS on this and WP7.

    I think it's about time I chucked in my MSDN and moved over to the opensource camp.  I guess it won't be long before you drop the ball on Exchange, Office and Windows 7, Server 2008

    I bet if you put DE up on codeplex we could do it for you.


    -- Free AV for WHS : http://whsclamav.sourceforge.net/


    Art Folden
    Monday, November 29, 2010 11:00 PM
  • "I think this is a huge mistake, made so that the code base will better support business deployment, and ignoring the needs of consumers. Microsoft is going to get lambasted in the media (they already are), and I think they deserve every bit of the abuse they'll receive..."

    I could not agree more. Thanks for clearly stating your position on this. :)

    Art (artfudd) Folden
    ------------------------------
    "Ken Warren [MVP]" wrote in message news:57256849-cc3c-4c8e-bc91-535997141fdb@communitybridge.codeplex.com...

    If it is primarily people who understand what RAID really is then maybe this isn't a bad move overall; however, if the majority of the/consumers/are people like my parents, then I think this is a very, very bad move indeed (including the fact that it means my technical support demands would get increased).

    I've said this before: I know personally (in the "Hi, Joe! How'd you like the Eagles game?" phone call sense, so frequent personal contacts) several dozen people who are running Windows Home Server. Of those, some are more technically inclined, some less so. Two of them have more than a TB of data in the storage pool, and I'm one of the two. I firmly believe that this is a typical consumer distribution. Overall, probably there are more HP units in small businesses serving as backup tools and simple file servers than there are in homes being used by consumers.

    At the end of the day, this was a business-oriented decision; see Paul Thurrott's blog posthere <http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2010/11/23/120150.aspx> for more information on why the decision was made. Note that this is information that MVPs were not privy to. We were told several weeks ago that Drive Extender was being removed, but it was basically a "Please go evangelize for us so we don't get too bad a drubbing" type of conversation. Well, Microsoft doesn't pay me to evangelize the product (seriously; I probably spend several hundred hours a year on this, and all the nice stuff Microsoft does for me amounts well under minimum wage), I do it because I like Windows Home Server. I think this is a huge mistake, made so that the code base will better support business deployment, and ignoring the needs of consumers. Microsoft is going to get lambasted in the media (they already are), and I think they deserve every bit of the abuse they'll receive...


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)


    Art Folden
    Monday, November 29, 2010 11:03 PM
  • "Jonas Svensson -HSBS- [MSFT]" wrote in message
    news:4dd48652-9eb4-4c1e-9f2a-345af2bf31ba@communitybridge.codeplex.com...
     
    And where, Jonas, does that leave those of us who cannot afford to go out
    and replace the drives we've accumulated up to now. Yes, there are many,
    many, many of us who have the smarts, but not the financial wherewithal to
    take off in this new direction.
     
    I save the leftovers from a meal, so why shouldn't I be able to use leftover
    hard drives? This is just plain wasteful!
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:07 AM
  • "I bet if you put DE up on codeplex we could do it for you."
     
    Without a doubt. MS developers could not even do a decent job of their NNTP
    Bridge.... the codeplex community had to do it instead.
     
    ----
     
    Hear, hear, Art! The Codeplex version of the  NNTP Bridge is much better
    than what Microsoft left us with after they just gave up in frustration.
    Which is what's happening with Vail. The team seems to have just quit in
    frustration.
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:10 AM
  • I thought WHS was for home users. And now, you tell me you're catering to
    the OEMs, rather than home users. Sigh . . .
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:14 AM
  • With these changes to Vail, WHS/Vail is effectively dead imo.   There's
    simply no reason to deploy it any longer.
     
    I'll be taking my new hardware and moving my existing WHS v1 to that new
    machine to improve performance and will not be moving to Vail.
    ----
     
    Very disappointing, indeed! I'll be doing essentially the same thing . . .
    Why use a new product when the old one is much better?
     
    What will this do to those who use WHS for their movies and such?
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:22 AM
  • Put it in feedback on Connect.  I bet a lot would up vote it!

    --
    _________________
     
    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _________________
    "I bet if you put DE up on codeplex we could do it for you."
     
    Without a doubt. MS developers could not even do a decent job of their NNTP
    Bridge.... the codeplex community had to do it instead.
     
    ----
     
    Hear, hear, Art! The Codeplex version of the  NNTP Bridge is much better
    than what Microsoft left us with after they just gave up in frustration.
    Which is what's happening with Vail. The team seems to have just quit in
    frustration.
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward

    BullDawg
    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 6:00 AM
  • Looks like I will be staying with WHSv1 then for the foreseable future as I will definately not be upgrading to Vail without DE.

     

    Colin

    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 4:42 PM
  • I'm sure glad they announced this today. Saves the money I was about to drop on parts to build my homeserv2 for Vail.

    Mind-numbing. They spent three+ years defending the DEM pooled approach as better for "average users" than less flexible "real" RAID solutions, poured who knows how much scarce R&D into implementing DEM v2 in a way more integrated with the OS, took a lot of grief for the block duplication and inability to read the disks as stock NTFS, and so they just punt the whole thing. They say how great this will be when, except for the multi TB video servers with lots of unduplicated movies, this is clearly not true.

    Sad.


    I was about to do the same, so at least it has saved me some money.

     

    Colin

    Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:35 PM
  • We pay a premium for WHS over the cost of consumer NAS boxes.  Why in the world would someone pay extra for WHS v2 without the most significant feature?
    Thursday, December 2, 2010 7:24 PM
  • I would like to know how many people buy WHS and set it up themselves versus how many people buy WHS already configured in a box from HP or some other vendor.

    I suspect the OEMs had a voice in this decision.

    For me, I don't care a whit about DE.  I'll just put in a Perfect FastTrack RAID card and continue.  What I object to is changing in mid-stream.  I have hours of working with WHS under certain assumptions and now I have to change those assumptions and start all over again. 

    I'm wondering what's going to happen when the refresh without DE is installed...


    ~Cliff
    Monday, December 20, 2010 4:04 PM
  • You could build your WHS2 box with a hardware RAID that supports JBOD with concatenation.  Of course, there will be no redundancy. 

    I will just throw in a RAID controller and implement a backup system using the eSATA port.  I'm wondering if I can adapt the WHS2 backup scheme to take advantage of the eSATA connection in my server box...


    ~Cliff
    Monday, December 20, 2010 4:22 PM