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Install error - During install it doesn't recognize a primary drive that WHS can be installed on

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I am using the 120 day evaluation discs.

I have an HP proliant, that was previously set up as a server with Windows 2003.
It has 3 Maxtor 80GB SCSI drives, that were set up in a RAID array.

I have deleted the array configuration, but am guessing that WHS install is still not recognizing them as independent SCSI drives.

I went into the BIOS, but did not see a way to change the RAID configuration in there.

Any ideas?

Monday, January 14, 2008 12:25 AM

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Assuming that when you deleted the array configuration, you also set all of the drives to run independently (in the SCSI controller BIOS): did you also grab the SCSI/RAID drivers (Server 2003 version) from HP, and copy them to a USB key or floppy disc?
From the sounds of things, the OS doesn't have drivers for your SCSI controller (can't have all of them on the install disc, unfortunately), and you'll have to point the WHS installer at whatever disc you put them on (note: floppy is still preferred, as the WHS installer might not have USB drivers for your board. Floppies, however, always "Just Work"(tm).)

Monday, January 14, 2008 1:06 AM
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If this is a driver issue, don't forget that you will need to have the drivers made available twice; once during the server 2003 installation and then again later.

Colin

Monday, January 14, 2008 5:59 PM
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ColinWH wrote:

If this is a driver issue, don't forget that you will need to have the drivers made available twice; once during the server 2003 installation and then again later.
Actually before Windows Server 2003 setup, not after, but what Colin says is critical if a RAID controller can't be configured to "pass through" disks. A lot of controllers require that single disks be placed in individual JBOD arrays, so if you have 4 disks, you'll have 4 arrays. In that case, you have to supply drivers on floppy in the Windows Server 2003 text-mode setup, at the "Press F6" prompt.

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:04 PM

Moderator

Ok,
More questions from the amateur geek (me)

you mention a windows server 2003 install, it is actually a WHS install.

Also: The 3 drives are actually SATA/RAID drives that we in an Array.
They are also hot swap drives. I had come to the conclusion last night that I would have to get another drive to use to load WHS on, but after reading these posts, it appears that I can download the drivers to a floppy, and then install them when the WHS install asks for other Hard drive drivers.
Could I also do this with a USB drive?
Will one of the hot swap SATA/RAID drives work as a hard disc to load WHS on?
Also - do I want drivers from Maxtor/Seagate or HP for the motherboard?

Thanks for the help

Monday, January 14, 2008 10:43 PM

WHS is, at its core, Small Business Server 2003, hence the references to Server 2k3.

As for getting it up and running on a RAID array, well, you're (kinda) on your own - it's not a supported configuration on WHS. You can *try* to install it to a RAID array, but it stands a good chance of not working. Also, if the total array size is >=2GB, you won't be able to use all of it due to WHS's disc-management.
Best chances are to configure the drive controller to handle each drive separately (i.e. single-drive JBOD arrays.)

Maxtor/Seagate don't make motherboards, therefore you won't get mobo drivers from them. Your mobo drivers will come from your mobo vendor (in this case, HP.)

Can you do what with a USB drive: install WHS to a USB drive, or use a USB drive (flash key) to load SATA/RAID drivers from? The former isn't supported (and likely won't work), the latter might work - if WHS has 'close-enough' drivers for the mobo and USB controllers (so that it can see USB devices), then it'll work. If, however, it doesn't have the necessary drivers, then it won't (and you'll be limited to loading SATA drivers old-school style, from a floppy.)

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:37 AM

ok - I now understand the server 2003 reference

I did configure the drive controller to handle each drive separately (I show 3 JBOD drives on boot now)

I have downloaded the driver from HP, and put it on a floppy - I will let you know how this goes

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:56 AM

jshepwnc wrote:

Well found the embedded drivers for a 6 port SATA array on HP's site, and it copied the image to a floppy (SATA.img), and the WHS install programm recognized it on the floppy, but after going into dos mode for a sec, it tried to restart the install process, and came back with the same error - no hard drive installed

I guess I need to go buy an IDE drive to get it loaded...........

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:28 AM

Just after it reboots into DOS mode, there should be a "Press F6 to add storage drivers" prompt. You will need to press F6 to load the additional drivers; no matter what the prior graphical setup may have implied, drivers for your RAID controller won't have been carried over to this setup in a usable fashion.

Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:11 PM

Moderator

Well.. I know this thread is a bit on the old side but I am curious if jshepwnc managed to get his issue fixed. I myself have had numerous issues.. likely all related to RAID and the way WHS loads the controller drivers and then "loses" them after its first reboot..

My situation is a bit different.

After some reading a client of mine decided he wanted a WHS for him and his family to store files and backups on. Coming from a Server administrator background I figured this should be easy and offered to install the OS for him as kind of a learning experience. Whoops.. big mistake.

So the client has:

Mobo:            M3N78-EM
CPU:              Athlon 6000+ AM2
RAM:              1GB Kinston DDR2
HDD:              4 x Seagate SATA 320GB in a 4 Bay Adaptec Enclosure
RAID:             Adaptec 2410SA (RAID 5)

Initial setup seemed fine but then asked for the controller drivers. No big deal, copied them to a USB drive and pointed the OS at it and away we went. Most of us would simply walk away at ths point and wait for the next user input prompt and then resume the setup. Unfortunately I feel this is where WHS lets us down. I walk away and come back to a screen that says WHS cannot find any HDDs and boom.. I have to start over again. You can imagine how I felt after letting WHS format the nearly 1TB array. So I tried again and missed it again. Don't know about you guys but I'm not a baby sitter and honestly.. dont have time..

I was dissapointed to hear that setting up WHS is not supported on RAID arrays. Seams a bit odd that MS would take drive redundancy out of the setup equation. Having learned that I promptly installed an 80GB SATA drive to act as the sole system drive while planning to redirect the server shares to the RAID volume. Whoops.. another mistake. Apperantly the "drive extender" doesn't let you do that either. So with WHS setup and the console telling me I have almost a TB available, I now have no Idea where the actual Data resides. Maybe it's there.. maybe not. As Server admin I need to know where the actual data resides and this setup is just scary. Even if it is on the RAID volume, how would I explain that to my client. "Yah your data "should" be there" but who knows.. lets just all trust this to MS. Yikers.

Anyways.. so here I am babysitting the setup this time... The array is being formatted as I type and hopefully I don't miss the reboot this time. Will let everybod know how it goes. If it fails again I will likely just try o sell him XP Pro or even tell him to give Windows 7 beta a try. At least that may be a free alternative for now.

Don't get me wrong though. I think the whole WHS is a great idea. I just wish that MS would have built in more features. The ability to change the location of the default shares is critical IMHO.

If somebody hear thinks I should have created this post in its own thread then sorry. Anyways.. will let everybody know how it goes.

Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:20 PM

Howard Dore said:

They don't take redundancy out of the equation. That's what Folder Duplication is for.

Howard Dore said:

Having learned that I promptly installed an 80GB SATA drive to act as the sole system drive while planning to redirect the server shares to the RAID volume. Whoops.. another mistake. Apperantly the "drive extender" doesn't let you do that either.

While using RAID is not supported, it should still work. When you connect the RAID array to the server, it should see a single 1 TB drive. Then you just add that single drive to the storage pool.

Howard Dore said:

So with WHS setup and the console telling me I have almost a TB available, I now have no Idea where the actual Data resides. Maybe it's there.. maybe not.

Of course it's there. It's on your RAID array.

Howard Dore said:

As Server admin I need to know where the actual data resides and this setup is just scary.

Again, it's on the RAID array. Where else would it be?

Howard Dore said:

Even if it is on the RAID volume, how would I explain that to my client. "Yah your data "should" be there" but who knows.. lets just all trust this to MS. Yikers.

You could say the same thing about any setup. You want to know if the data is there? Look at the shares.

Howard Dore said:

Anyways.. so here I am babysitting the setup this time... The array is being formatted as I type and hopefully I don't miss the reboot this time. Will let everybod know how it goes. If it fails again I will likely just try o sell him XP Pro or even tell him to give Windows 7 beta a try. At least that may be a free alternative for now.

Don't get me wrong though. I think the whole WHS is a great idea. I just wish that MS would have built in more features. The ability to change the location of the default shares is critical IMHO.

I don't think you understand the target audience of the product. It's not designed for people who have a broad knowledge of computers. It's designed to be easy-to-use. WHS is not Server 2003 Lite. If you want more flexibility, use 2003/2008.

Howard Dore said:

If somebody hear thinks I should have created this post in its own thread then sorry. Anyways.. will let everybody know how it goes.

Edited by kariya21Moderator Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:24 PM typo

Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:23 PM

Moderator

RAID is not supported because it is too complicated for the average user and beyond the intention of WHS. It really isn't all that necessary with the way WHS is setup. The administration has been pared down as much as possible. Set it and forget it is WHS. Granted WHS isn't perfect, but it is not an Enterprise level solution either. File duplication provides much of the same level of protection that people want.

Now, not being supported is a lot different then saying it isn't possible. People have already figured out many ways to get RAID arrays configured and working just fine. You just can't come in here complaining or asking for help since it is not supported. I don't mean for that to sound mean, but it is the facts.

There is a nice thread on We Got Served that will give you some ideas on how to RAID in WHS should you still want to go that direction.

PACS Technical Support Engineer

Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:58 AM

Thanks fo your reply Kariya21. Responses below...

-They don't take redundancy out of the equation. That's what Folder Duplication is for.
Folder duplication and drive redundancy are 2 completely different animals. If I have 300GB of data duplicated to different folders on a single TB drive and the drive fails then the duplicated folders are still gone.

-While using RAID is not supported, it should still work. When you connect the RAID array to the server, it should see a single 1 TB drive. Then you just add that single drive to the storage pool.
Yup.. it does work if you just add it to the storage pool, however, this still doesn't solve the issue about moving the default shares to another location. This simply adds more storage.. anyways...

-Of course it's there. It's on your RAID array.
OK.. so now I have 3 drives in the storage pool adding up to roughly 1.5TB. Does each drive store a duplicated folder? or are the default shares spanned accross all of the drives? If a drive fails do I lose only a single duplicated folder or will I lose 500GB of data that isn't duplicated? Also,on the 80GB system drive is a 20GB and 60GB partition. Is that 60GB partition part of the storage too? and does this create other problems with regards to copying more that 60GB of data to the server at 1 time? This is my first crack at WHS so please pardon my ignorance.

-Again, it's on the RAID array. Where else would it be?
Hopefully only on the RAID array.. but I'm not sure yet.

-You could say the same thing about any setup. You want to know if the data is there? Look at the shares.
Actually.. If the WHS server would install directly to the RAID volume then I would say it was there on the RAID volume... but when muliple drives are concerned I have no idea if a particular file resides on which particular drive.. When the client gets this unit and has saved Gigs of data I will have to stop in and check the drives and the shares. Right now I don't have the time to save movies and songs and other data in this installation/learning environment just to learn about where the data actually resides. Thats why I try to read about WHS in these forums. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to browse all of the threads about this subject but really wish I did.

-I don't think you understand the target audience of the product. It's not designed for people who have a broad knowledge of computers.
None the less, these people look at people like us for answers, and I like being able to make educated answers. Thats how I keep clients.
-It's designed to be easy-to-use.
It is very easy to use. That connector software is pretty slick.. :)
-WHS is not Server 2003 Lite. If you want more flexibility, use 2003/2008.
This is not for me... I would simply like to be able to explain to my client with some certainty where his data is in case of a critical failure. My servers and my corporate clients use only WS2k3, 2k8 or SBS2k3 and 2k8.

Thanks for your response as well Z06_Dude.

-RAID is not supported because it is too complicated for the average user and beyond the intention of WHS. It really isn't all that necessary with the way WHS is setup. The administration has been pared down as much as possible. Set it and forget it is WHS. Granted WHS isn't perfect, but it is not an Enterprise level solution either.
Fair enough. Maybe it is just too easy and that is why I have questions.. ;)
-File duplication provides much of the same level of protection that people want.
I'm sure with more time I would have realized that File duplication was the plan. File duplication and Hardware level RAID are not the same level of protection but I understand why MS would prefer FD for ease of install purposes. Thats my own fault for not reading more.

-Now, not being supported is a lot different then saying it isn't possible. People have already figured out many ways to get RAID arrays configured and working just fine.
Thats great to hear. I was able to get shares set up on the WHS but just wasn't able to get them seen using the console. More reading would likely provide the solution here.

-You just can't come in here complaining or asking for help since it is not supported.
Actually.. I should be able to ask for help in here in regards to any WHS issue supported or not. And since I did, you pointed me towards We Got Served. That is what forums are for and for that I say Thanks.. :) Also maybe in a future release of WHS they might consider including some of the more troublesome features that people are complaining about.
-I don't mean for that to sound mean, but it is the facts.
Hey thats fine. I didn't think you were mean. After re-reading my post and then looking at the way Kariya21 ripped it appart, I can see how complasive I was.. sorry for that too. The facts about what forums are meant to be for might be up for debate though.. ;)

Update to my progress...

Approaching the end of the RAID 5 build process I lost power to my bench. My old HP8150 work horse had to spin up for a print job and I guess I had to many devices on my bench so poof went the breaker. Yes I know better but i take these risks all the time. I wish I could afford a UPS for every station on the bench... anyways, I eventually got the RAID created but then the install stalled at the copying files part.. twice. The stall occurred when trying to copy directly to the array. I figure this has to do with the RAID support issue so I decided to throw the 80GB drive back in and reinstall to it. Worked great. Than added the RAID and all is good. Since then added another 500GB drive for the client but as mentioned I am not sure exactly how WHS sees it. The client dropped in and decided to take it home and tinker. I ghosted the main drive just incase.. :P. All is good.

Most people at this point would likely wash their hands of this but I will jump onto the "We Got Served" forums in the next couple of days to see what ideas they have. Thanks again for all the input.

Regards,

Howard

Friday, February 20, 2009 7:09 AM

Start by reading Why RAID is not a consumer technology. That lays out the decisions around this area better than I can. There are limitations if you choose to go the RAID route that aren't laid out there, however. The biggest one is probably that WHS uses MBR style partition tables and creates a single partition on any drive you add to the storage pool (except the system drive, which will also have a 20 GB system partition). As a result, you are limited to a maximum of 2 TB in a logical drive.

After you've read that blog post, I would recommend you read the documentation available on the Windows Home Server Support page, particularly the Drive Extender technical brief. You don't have a very good understanding yet of what Drive Extender is, or what it does. Or possibly even the design philosophy behind WHS, which is to be a hardware appliance that you can pick up at Best Buy, take home, set up, and have "just work". It's not intended to be installed on custom hardware by end users; that's something that system builders will do for their clients, and it's why there is no retail package of WHS software (or free Microsoft support; the OEM or system builder is the end user's source of support).

For example, Duplication requires that you have at least two drives installed in your server and participating in the storage pool. This is because duplication requires that duplicates be stored on a separate physical hard drive.

As for the rest of your quesitons, I think you'll find that they are also covered in the information available on the Support page.

I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)

Friday, February 20, 2009 1:39 PM

Moderator

Thanks for your response Ken.

I will check out the blogs and the WHS support pages you have suggested. Just need to find time now.. :)

My understanding of the Drive Extender in non existant as you have obviously read. When I offered to build this for my client I had never set WHS up before. As the system builder I need to be able to explain the way WHS works in plain English so that they understand. Being that I had never set it up I suppose I shouldn't have offered. I would never send a long time client to Best Buy. I've had too many people walk into my Service department complaining about their experiences there.
I now understand the philosophy behind it. Next time I will be wiser to the undertaking.. :)

Thanks again for your input. It's nice when people can respond to a post with helpfull suggestions and eventually get people pointed in the right direction.

Regards,

Howard

Friday, February 20, 2009 4:36 PM

Finding time is tough. :)

The only real answer to the question "Where is my data?" is "In the WHS Storage Pool." By design, there are no drive letters as far as a user is concerned. WHS itself manages where files are located, and which drives they are on. As for explaining how WHS works, I disagree that you need to be able to provide a technical explanation to your clients. You need to be able to provide a good "layman's" explanation, and you need to be able to direct those who want to know more to appropriate sources of information.

I don't disagree with you about Best Buy, however. It's just that WHS is primarily intended to be distributed through those sorts of channels.

As for being helpful, I'm all about "self-service education". I have a million different ways (some nice, some funny, some annoyingly direct) to say "Please Read The Fine Manual." :) Once it's obvious that someone doesn't really know anything about the product, I would rather show them where the documentation is and let them come back with questions that are raised after reading it, instead of serving out information in dribs and drabs and maybe never reaching the point where they have the information they need.

I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)

Friday, February 20, 2009 5:47 PM

Moderator

Howard Dore said:

Thanks for your response as well Z06_Dude.

-File duplication provides much of the same level of protection that people want.
I'm sure with more time I would have realized that File duplication was the plan. File duplication and Hardware level RAID are not the same level of protection but I understand why MS would prefer FD for ease of install purposes. Thats my own fault for not reading more.

Actually, yes they are. Folder Duplication is basically RAID 1 (mirroring), just at the share level instead of the drive level.

Howard Dore said:

-I don't mean for that to sound mean, but it is the facts.
Hey thats fine. I didn't think you were mean. After re-reading my post and then looking at the way Kariya21 ripped it appart, I can see how complasive I was.. sorry for that too. The facts about what forums are meant to be for might be up for debate though.. ;)

No problem (I apologize as well).

Howard Dore said:

Update to my progress...

Approaching the end of the RAID 5 build process I lost power to my bench. My old HP8150 work horse had to spin up for a print job and I guess I had to many devices on my bench so poof went the breaker. Yes I know better but i take these risks all the time. I wish I could afford a UPS for every station on the bench... anyways, I eventually got the RAID created but then the install stalled at the copying files part.. twice. The stall occurred when trying to copy directly to the array. I figure this has to do with the RAID support issue so I decided to throw the 80GB drive back in and reinstall to it. Worked great. Than added the RAID and all is good.

One of the problems with adding a RAID array is if a drive fails inside the array, there will be no notification in the WHS Console. The only way the end user would know is to logon periodically to the server desktop (which is unsupported) and check for themselves.

Howard Dore said:

Since then added another 500GB drive for the client but as mentioned I am not sure exactly how WHS sees it. The client dropped in and decided to take it home and tinker. I ghosted the main drive just incase.. :P. All is good.

FYI, Ghosting the primary drive in WHS is pretty much worthless due to the way it handles tombstones.

Howard Dore said:

Most people at this point would likely wash their hands of this but I will jump onto the "We Got Served" forums in the next couple of days to see what ideas they have. Thanks again for all the input.

Regards,

Howard

Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:34 PM

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Install error - During install it doesn't recognize a primary drive that WHS can be installed on

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