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Hard to remove an offending sentence if the post is quickly locked - but anyway why can't you say so if a Wiki is wrong? RRS feed

  • Question

  • Here

    http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/reportabug/thread/d5574f71-806c-4434-abda-12f216e25b15/

    I wrote "That must be the stupidest Wiki article I have ever seen."

    Note the Wiki.

    This can not be regarded as a personal attack on anyone.

    However a reply came which attacked me several times and as soon as that attack had been posted, the thread was locked by the person who made the attack saying that "I'll go ahead and lock this thread since name calling has started,"

    The only person who was name calling was the person who made those personal attacks on me. So in effect it is fine for him to make personal attacks and ensure that they go unchallenged by posting them and immediately locking a thread.

    The other point is that it is impossible to edit out any text from one's own post (in response to people saying politely that the word "stupid" should not be used in connection with a Wiki) if a thread has been locked the moment that request has been made.

    Surely if someone says the answer is in a Wiki then it is legitimate to say strongly that the Wiki is wrong?

     

     


    SP 2010 "FAQ" (mainly useful links): http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com/default.aspx
    WSS3/MOSS FAQ (FAQ and Links) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/default.aspx
    Both also have links to extensive book lists and to (free) on-line chapters
    Thursday, January 26, 2012 8:52 PM

Answers

  • I'm not really sure how to respond to this.  I followed the link to the Wiki from the post that Mike linked to.  In the wiki, I clicked on the link to edit the wiki, but the resulting page was not updatable (perhaps I'm not authorised to edit the wiki), so I left a comment, which was:

    To the reasons not to self propose I would add:

    4.  You are the least objective person to judge whether your post is the answer.  Yes (unless you are asking for clarification of the question) you believe your post answers the question, if you didn't think so, you wouldn't have posted it.  But consider that you might have misinterpreted the question (or the questioner may not have stated it clearly enough).  Imagine if everyone who thought they were answering the question proposed their post as the answer, most of the posts in every thread would be proposed as the answer, so the "proposed as the answer" flag would be worthless. 

     

    Friday, January 27, 2012 1:21 AM

All replies

  • I have learned through past (and recent) experience that what one believes he says in a spirit of respect and honesty actually CAN be regarded as a personal attack. The ability for this to happen does not belong to the words themselves, but to that of the reader who has somehow misread a poster's intent in the most negative way possible.

    But I believe we can limit the extent of misunderstanding that takes place by anticipating the likely result of using certain hot-button words or referring to negative personal attributes - even when not specifically applied to any individual(s) in particular. Overt politeness is another useful tool in this regard.

    • Proposed as answer by Naomi N Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:41 PM
    Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:58 PM
  • Thank you for starting a discussion, like I suggested. It's currently marked as a question. Should it be a discussion?

    Another thing you can do (if you want) is to turn your opinion into reasons and then help us list them in the Wiki. There's also a section in the Wiki to list your opinion. But please don't just say "This is stupid" or the ego description. Please list the reasons.

    Like does it assume that the person thinks their answer is the right one? Is that the reason why you think the person is new or has an ego? I'm curious why proposing an answer says that. I would think a Moderator marking their own reply as an answer without waiting some time (at least a week) is a little more like that and worthy of causing frustrations. Or Moderators marking any answers without waiting a week for a proposed answer to be reviewed.

    I say give the Asker a week to browse the proposed answers and see what actually answers the question.

    Isn't that the point of the proposed answer, for the original asker to go through them, unpropose the ones that don't answer the question, and mark any that do?

    Here's another possible reason: is it an extra burden for the asker to read the questions that are proposed as answers? Is that an issue?

    Let me go back to your question, since you asked it...

    Yes, it's legitimate to say that you disagree. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I disagree." The Wiki article includes several opinions from various perspectives, and some think there are times when self proposing is okay. Others think that it's never okay to self propose.

    So far no one thinks it's always okay to self propose (no one active in the community). My recommendation is to propose other peoples' answers a lot more. One of the issues I have with not self proposing is there are many situations where one person tries to answer a question. That's it. Crickets. No one else does anything. So I started this thread where we can try to minimize any need to self propose by proposing for each other more:

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/Profile/thread/5db4d0b8-93d1-4821-8ff1-4b0d2fdd277a

    This practice of self proposing can really frustrate some people. I've seen several times where people have been upset (all times in the past when I wasn't even involved).

    So I'd love to build out the con list with more reasons.

    I'd be fine adding the reasons if you have any more (we came up with three previously).

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)

    Friday, January 27, 2012 12:46 AM
  • I'm not really sure how to respond to this.  I followed the link to the Wiki from the post that Mike linked to.  In the wiki, I clicked on the link to edit the wiki, but the resulting page was not updatable (perhaps I'm not authorised to edit the wiki), so I left a comment, which was:

    To the reasons not to self propose I would add:

    4.  You are the least objective person to judge whether your post is the answer.  Yes (unless you are asking for clarification of the question) you believe your post answers the question, if you didn't think so, you wouldn't have posted it.  But consider that you might have misinterpreted the question (or the questioner may not have stated it clearly enough).  Imagine if everyone who thought they were answering the question proposed their post as the answer, most of the posts in every thread would be proposed as the answer, so the "proposed as the answer" flag would be worthless. 

     

    Friday, January 27, 2012 1:21 AM
  • I added your comment. The reason you could not add it to the original linked article is because it was a blog. The article link is here

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/4865.whether-or-not-you-should-self-propose-an-answer-in-an-msdn-or-technet-forum/edit.aspx


    For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Becker's Law


    My blog
    Friday, January 27, 2012 1:37 AM
  • Thanks Naomi
    Friday, January 27, 2012 1:40 AM
  • I'm not really sure how to respond to this.  I followed the link to the Wiki from the post that Mike linked to.  In the wiki, I clicked on the link to edit the wiki, but the resulting page was not updatable (perhaps I'm not authorised to edit the wiki), so I left a comment, which was:

    To the reasons not to self propose I would add:

    4.  You are the least objective person to judge whether your post is the answer.  Yes (unless you are asking for clarification of the question) you believe your post answers the question, if you didn't think so, you wouldn't have posted it.  But consider that you might have misinterpreted the question (or the questioner may not have stated it clearly enough).  Imagine if everyone who thought they were answering the question proposed their post as the answer, most of the posts in every thread would be proposed as the answer, so the "proposed as the answer" flag would be worthless. 

     


    I think you might have two reasons there. Could the "imagine" sentence be pulled out to be its own point?

    Maybe...

    5. You don't want too many proposed answers. Imagine if everyone who thought they were answering the question proposed their post as the answer, most of the posts in every thread would be proposed as the answer, so the "proposed as the answer" flag would be worthless.

     

    So it's not an argument to not self propose all the time, but it's still a good argument on its own to not self propose in general.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Friday, January 27, 2012 1:50 AM
  • I think you might have two reasons there. Could the "imagine" sentence be pulled out to be its own point?

    Maybe...

    5. You don't want too many proposed answers. Imagine if everyone who thought they were answering the question proposed their post as the answer, most of the posts in every thread would be proposed as the answer, so the "proposed as the answer" flag would be worthless.

    So it's not an argument to not self propose all the time, but it's still a good argument on its own to not self propose in general.

    Thoughts?

    Yes. I considered making it two separate reasons, that probably makes sense,
    Friday, January 27, 2012 2:15 AM
  • Yes. I considered making it two separate reasons, that probably makes sense,


    Okay. Updated here: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/4865.whether-or-not-you-should-self-propose-an-answer-in-an-msdn-or-technet-forum.aspx

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Friday, January 27, 2012 2:37 AM
  • > To the reasons not to self propose I would add:

    > 4. You are the least objective person to judge whether your post is the answer.  (etc.)

    Perfect!

    ----------------------------------------------------

    While I'm here I'd like to defend my statement (in that quoted thread) that people new to the forums think they should propose their own posts as answers.

    This is not being nasty in any way to new posters. It's simply a matter of my experience that many new posters think "reply=answer" and so whenever they post a reply they automatically mark it as an answer *thinking that is what they are supposed to do*. On being advised not to do this many new posters have replied saying that they thought that was what the propose as answer button meant.

    We've all been new once in everything we do and we've all made mistakes through not being aware of the norms and unwritten rules so saying - based on experience - that one of the two main self-proposer groups are new people in the forums is not an attack on new people, just a fact.


    SP 2010 "FAQ" (mainly useful links): http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com/default.aspx
    WSS3/MOSS FAQ (FAQ and Links) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/default.aspx
    Both also have links to extensive book lists and to (free) on-line chapters
    Friday, January 27, 2012 7:16 AM