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Forum rules, regulation and potential censorship

    General discussion

  •  Howdy,
    I'm writing about a problem that I hope is only my oversight or a technical bug.  I sent a Customer Service request using the "Contact Us" page and a fellow named Carl suggested that I try the forums.

    On Jun 24, 2010 I responded to the following forum post. http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/genuinebenefits/thread/a4ca8e13-c424-46fb-93d7-cfd47ff80336/#b2c8836f-985e-4332-a08c-eab424dac514

    The question was a person looking for a basic, lightweight OS for an old laptop so his grandchild could watch DVDs.
    Carey Frisch (moderator) posted a response that the person should follow instructions to get restore discs from Dell (which dell says may not work with older machines) or to buy a copy of XPSP3.
    I added a response that another option would be to download and install a lightweight and free Linux distro and added a link to Linux Mint.

    I happened to browse back past that thread today and saw that my response has been deleted and the thread has been locked.

    Please tell me that it was not censored by a forum admin.  I would be very sad if this wonderful, open tech forum was driven by such small mindedness.

    Sincerely,
    Joe

     

    Tuesday, July 13, 2010 6:45 AM

All replies

  • The easy option is to download an install disc for Linux.  Small and light and will run on an older laptop quite happly.

    Try www.linuxmint.com

     

    /Joe

     

    That was 6 months ago.   Some things change with time.  Try it again and see what happens.

     

    Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:46 AM
  • Carey Frisch (moderator) posted a response   ...    Please tell me that it was not censored by a forum admin.

     

    I just had two posts deleted earlier today by Carey Frisch in the thread   Can I download Windows 7 online and use my purchased key.  It is now locked.  My first deleted post included direct links to Digital River.  My second deleted post was as follows, verbatim:

    "No need to be so abrupt.   Which of those did I violate by restating links to Digital River, an authorized MS fulfillment distributor?"

     

    Before we decide I was inappropriate to post links to Digital River, just look at what Carey Frish posted in this thread.  Also, notice that just yesterday an MSFT moderator proposed my post as answer which contains similar direct links.  Some of those links come from other MSFTs and Moderators right here on TechNet/MSDN.  So, what was so inappropriate today?

    More directly, who was inappropriate today?

     

    @Brent Serbus:   Perhaps we can resume our conversation about socal-ism.microsoft.com here.

    @derosnec:   Have you any comments about my avatar?   Speak up.  I know you want to.

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:22 AM
  • What was 6 months ago?  I'm referring to an incident from Jun 24, 2010.
    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:42 AM
  • My apologies.  I misread.  You are correct, on both counts.   Nothing has changed in 6 months.

    At least I got your censored quote right.

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:06 AM
  • So the question still unanswered is:  Is there a rule against suggestion or endorsing a non-MS product or solution to problems posted here?

    /Joe

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 10:09 AM
  • So the question still unanswered is:  Is there a rule against suggestion or endorsing a non-MS product or solution to problems posted here?

    /Joe


    Do you see that every post in this thread is now marked Already reported as abusive.  What do you suppose is coming next?

    Will we all get banned?

    That would certainly leave nothing unanswered, Model_Citizen.

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:41 PM
  • Wow.  The post really are marked as abusive.  Amazing.  Scary.

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 5:34 PM
  • Wow.  The post really are marked as abusive.  Amazing.  Scary.


    You just got tagged abusive too.  In less than 12 minutes.

     

    I just got a post deleted again, this time from thread  Digital river download .  Carey Frisch is the name at the top of the Recent Moderators list right now.  Here's the exact content of my deleted post, verbatim:

    "See the thread  Clean Install Using OEM Key – Windows 7  for other acceptable alternatives."

     

    What a tyrant.

    • Edited by Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:04 PM
    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 5:54 PM
  •  

    And now my other post, the one that Dale Qiao MSFT Moderator proposed as answer, it has been deleted too.

     

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 6:27 PM
  •  

    And now that entire thread has been deleted.

     

    Did I say tyrant?   I believe we are seeing  socal-ism.microsoft.com  in action.    Does no other MVP have the backbone to chime in here?

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:09 PM
  •  

    Wow.  Already reported as abusive in less than 2 minutes.

     

    Did I say tyrant?   Does no other MVP have the backbone to chime in here?

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:12 PM
  •  

    Does anybody have the nerve to stand up to this TYRANT?   < shudder >

     

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:23 PM
  •  

    Direct Link by  Ronnie Vernon MVP  September 25, 2009

    Direct Link by  Andy Song  November 16, 2009

     

    Carey Frisch, why don't you discipline your subordinates before you harass and censor other members here.  Those are your subordinates I quoted, aren't they?

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:46 PM
  • I've really no idea what the background of this debate is, but I've a bad feeling about some inexplicable incidents. Tried to reply to some questions (one in Romanian - could be removed by language issues -, one by "mobopie"), got the dreaded "Unexpected error" message when submitting my reply and noticed that the posts I referred to were either removed or modified. There may be reasons for this (even if I don't remember any violations of the rules) but it's definitely counterproductive if those moves are done without any notification. Any impression of arbitrary censorship is the last what we - and Microsoft - need on these forums. It's so easy: If something goes wrong, say it, give the poster/reader/answerer a right to his own opinion, but PLEASE avoid hide-and-seek games.

    And, btw, this may be an additional work for moderators. Surely, but I think those issues are between the most important ones they have to commit. Forums aren't only places to exchange knowledge or thoughts, they are a kind of "business card" for a company. Customers don't like repellant support people, that's a real commonplace.


    "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” (Thomas J. Watson, Sr.)

    Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:10 AM
  • Any impression of arbitrary censorship is the last what we - and Microsoft - need on these forums.

     

     

    Arbitrary?

    Sanmartin, I assume you were trying to reply to this thread.  Take a look at it now.  It is locked and 16 posts have been deleted.  What remains is Carey Frisch giving the ok to defy MS policy by using a factory-OEM key to activate MS-Retail Windows media.

    "You can use an OEM Windows 7 product key with a "full license" Windows 7 DVD".

     

    The full thread is still cached on Google.  Here is the very first reply to Carey's post (mine), and a piece of another.

    Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:23 AM mobopie
    (1)  The key printed on the laptop's OEM sticker can be used with a non-OEM retail disk?
    (2)  Using a keyfinder program beforehand, can the laptop's built-in OEM key be used instead, with this non-OEM retail disk?   (Just to simplify activation without phone). 

    Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:43 AM mobopie
    I'd still like to hear an answer to my questions (1) and (2) above, if anybody knows for sure?



    Arbitrary?  Not a chance.  Not even the courtesy of a clarification which was requested twice.  No.  Whatever Carey Frisch decides is absolute and final.  And if that is not good enough, posts are deleted as punishment and the thread locked.  (Or concealed altogether).  It is the behavior of a smug and mean spirited tyrant.

    You can guess who has been tagging all these posts Abusive in this thread.

    This is how Microsoft desires to be represented.    (?)

    Thursday, July 15, 2010 10:54 PM
  • Please review the answer from Mr. Darin Smith which essentially reiterates what I said in this thread:  Can I download Windows 7 online and use my purchased key.

    Your posts have been mostly useless and will continue to be removed if found to be in violation of the forum's  Terms of Use.

    Users that visit these forums are looking for honest and trustworthy advice and not ill advice or workarounds that violate intellectual property rights and/or agreements.

    I shall not engage in any further debate regarding your senseless  complaints.


    Carey Frisch
    Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 PM
  •  Howdy,
    I'm writing about a problem that I hope is only my oversight or a technical bug.  I sent a Customer Service request using the "Contact Us" page and a fellow named Carl suggested that I try the forums.


    Model_m, you can save this page as it exists right now, as a Web Archive, single file (*.mht).

    Why don't you forward it to your "Contact Us" open ticket?

     

    You could also just link this page.  But this page will probably be censored (or deleted) before they can look at it.

    Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:39 PM
  • Please review the answer from Mr. Darin Smith which essentially reiterates what I said in this thread:  Can I download Windows 7 online and use my purchased key.

    Your posts have been mostly useless and will continue to be removed if found to be in violation of the forum's  Terms of Use.

    Users that visit these forums are looking for honest and trustworthy advice and not ill advice or workarounds that violate intellectual property rights and/or agreements.

    I shall not engage in any further debate regarding your senseless  complaints.


    Carey Frisch

     

    Carey, do not slander me.  Review  this post and this post and this post, where in each case I advocate respecting the MS EULA.

     

    And did it occur to you that Darin's revealing mention of Digital River doesn't reiterate you, it politely overrides you.  Politely, which is anything but what you did there, with your censorship and lock and embarrassingly rationalized rude blurt.  Which is exactly what you're doing here too.  Rationalizing.

    Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:56 PM
  • When folks post a question in a Microsoft sponsored forum regarding an operating system, they are looking for a Microsoft solution.  Offering a third-party operating system is not useful because Microsoft does not/cannot support it, and cannot assist installing or troubleshooting any potential problems arising from the installation and performance.  All you did was supply a link to a third-party operating system and offered absolutely no assistance regarding installing it or even research if the OP's computer manufacturer offered the drivers for it.  And if the OP needed assistance installing it, do you really think a Microsoft forum is equipped to handle this discussion?  No, I think not.
    Carey Frisch
    Friday, July 16, 2010 1:46 AM
  • When folks post a question in a Microsoft sponsored forum regarding an operating system, they are looking for a Microsoft solution.  Offering a third-party operating system is not useful because Microsoft does not/cannot support it, and cannot assist installing or troubleshooting any potential problems arising from the installation and performance.  All you did was supply a link to a third-party operating system and offered absolutely no assistance regarding installing it or even research if the OP's computer manufacturer offered the drivers for it.  And if the OP needed assistance installing it, do you really think a Microsoft forum is equipped to handle this discussion?  No, I think not.
    Carey Frisch


    Digital River is providing 3rd party O/S?  They are not a Microsoft fulfillment distributor?  You know better than that, Carey.  You deleted my posts right from that very thread.  I'm surprised it's not locked.

    Furthermore, all you need do is Google Digital River Windows 7 ISO and you will find the direct download in less than 1 minute.  They have not changed their static methods in years.  It is practically the same location as the Vista downloads.  It is as though they want it to be publicly known.  This is in stark contrast to Microsoft's adware strategy, which is rotated round-robin on approximately a 4 minute schedule, as though to obscure it.  I discovered that right here in this forum, alarmed that Lake Quincy was spyware or a virus.  Why were you not stalking my posts then, Carey?

    PKB, it is you who advises members to activate Retail Windows with a factory-OEM key.  You just resented that I had the nerve to question it.  Now you've gone on a rampage deleting my posts and tagging others as Abusive.  Carey, do not slander me.  Review  this post and this post and this post, where in each case I advocate respecting the MS EULA.

     

    Friday, July 16, 2010 2:30 AM
  • I see what you're doing Carey.  You just replied to 5 other threads to push this one down in the list.

    When was the last time you took any interest in this Suggestions forum?

    Very strategic, Carey.

    Friday, July 16, 2010 3:34 AM
  • Your posts have been mostly useless and will continue to be removed if found to be in violation of the forum's  Terms of Use.


    Carey Frisch


    Mostly useless.   A moderator can say that here?  Openly?

    Uselessness is a violation.  It justifies censorship here on  socal-ism.microsoft.com.   Apply that equally, and what would be left?

     

    I just noticed two of six threads I replied to were found to be useless, and locked.     My avatar is remindful of another era too.

    Friday, July 16, 2010 9:01 PM
  • I thought this kind of "avatars" (identicons) were abolished some time ago? Anyways, this kind of thread is getting a bit childish. One side suspects censorship and tyranny, the other insists on the "sense" or senselessness (what a word) of complaints - come on. How do you think to decide this? By a duel? Better think of the purpose of these forums: It's about sharing experiences, neither about giving official or "authoritative" statements from high above nor about delivering generalized complaints from "deep beyond". But I see, this helpless peace attempt may look childish, too... I resign.
    "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” (Thomas J. Watson, Sr.)
    Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:20 AM

  • Apply that equally, and what would be left?





    well, i have a beef about a totally opposite thing.  but it's the same thing in the end.

    rude and uninformative posts that have no merit beyond pro-MS affection are permitted and encouraged here.  they obscure any genuine content in these forums.  those posts are not deleted by moderators.  they should be.  instead, they are often voted-up and/or marked answers.  it's exasperating to read that drool without retaliating.  i'm really not participating here anymore as a result of it.

    sorry if i went OT.

    Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:26 AM
  • I just got a post rosetta stone again, this time from thread  .

    http://www.rosettastonestyle.com

    Saturday, July 17, 2010 7:15 AM
  • This seems to have gone off topic again.  I'm trying to determine if there is an official rule (written or otherwise) that no mention or endorsement of non-MS products should be posted on these forums.

    @Carey - Would you care to weigh in on this or on the original posters question?
    Saturday, July 17, 2010 8:32 PM
  • This seems to have gone off topic again.  I'm trying to determine if there is an official rule (written or otherwise) that no mention or endorsement of non-MS products should be posted on these forums.

    @Carey - Would you care to weigh in on this or on the original posters question?

    Thank you for your comments!  As time goes on, the design and functionality of the forums will become enhanced

    e\ I was making a statement on the copy+pasted text that Carey used to try and bump other threads in front of this. That is obviously an abuse of the forums - not this thread created for open discussion

    Monday, July 19, 2010 1:42 PM
  • Friday, July 16, 2010 3:34 AM

    I see what you're doing Carey.  You just replied to 5 other threads to push this one down in the list.

    When was the last time you took any interest in this Suggestions forum?

    Very strategic, Carey.

    Thank you for your comments!  As time goes on, the design and functionality of the forums will become enhanced

    e\ I was making a statement on the copy+pasted text that Carey used to try and bump other threads in front of this.

     

    Thank you for your comments!  As time goes on, the design and functionality of the forums will become enhanced

    Friday, July 16, 2010 2:40 AM

    Friday, July 16, 2010 2:41 AM

    Friday, July 16, 2010 2:41 AM

    Friday, July 16, 2010 2:42 AM

    p.a.a.

    a.r.a.

    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 5:28 AM
  • When folks post a question in a Microsoft sponsored forum regarding an operating system, they are looking for a Microsoft solution.  Offering a third-party operating system is not useful because Microsoft does not/cannot support it, and cannot assist installing or troubleshooting any potential problems arising from the installation and performance.  All you did was supply a link to a third-party operating system and offered absolutely no assistance regarding installing it or even research if the OP's computer manufacturer offered the drivers for it.  And if the OP needed assistance installing it, do you really think a Microsoft forum is equipped to handle this discussion?  No, I think not.
    Carey Frisch


    This is a legitamate point.  The question is, if a solution is offered that uses a non-microsoft solution, should it be censored?  I'd like to hope not.

    I also feel that the people who post here are responsible, intellegent adults who understand that they will not find troubleshooting and assistance for non-microsoft products if they encounter problems with, say, installation.  Nonetheless, if a post goes up offering a solution to someone's problem, and it makes use of a non-microsoft solution, the questioner should be allowed to weight the pros and cons for himself.

    A suggestion for the forum moderators, if they feel that they need to emphasise that no support is given here for non-microsoft products, could be to reply to the thread with a comment such as:

    "The above solution makes use of a non-microsoft product or service.  Please be aware that microsoft only provides service for microsoft products."

    But to censor the forums??!!? 

    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:04 AM
  • Offering a third-party ...do you really think a Microsoft forum is equipped to handle this discussion?  No, I think not.
    Carey Frisch


    This is a legitamate point.


    No it's not.

    Microsoft relies on 3rd party software, from A-Z, even recommending it in these forums.  Start with A for Acronis partitioning tools and see how many refs there are.  Just don't utter anything that may seem competetive, or worse, contradict Carey.  Otherwise, your "mostly useless"  posts will get censored and justified by blurted nonsense like this.

    "You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services."

    Ref: Terms of Use

     

    Would it be a distortion to say you are violating the covenants by displaying the content of these Services on your monitor right now?   Seriously.  You can interpret that blurt to mean any distorted thing, if your intention is to justify punishment and censorship.

    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:48 AM
  • My friend, you are getting far to worked up about this.  I'd just like a clear answer from an admin as to if there is an offical policy to censor proposed non-MS solutions.
    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:09 AM
  • My friend, you got unapologetically censored for suggesting a Unix alternative.  That spoke for itself.  Now you see everything else that's gone on here denying and concealing and even justifying it.    Are you intimidated by that Abusive tag on your posts?    Don't pretend you're not outraged.  Or expect a straight reason.

     

     

    But I'll tell you this.   When I first replied to this thread, I was reporting a surprise incident of my own.  Then I found my posts being stalked, deleted, locked, denigrated and tagged Abusive.  Retroactively.     You bet I am worked up.

    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:27 AM
  • Joe,

    I think that some MVP's forget that they are a mirror for Microsoft to get another view then from employees.

    I did not see your reply, but as it was like you wrote, I found it very helpful.

    There is no free Microsoft solution in this case, so why not help persons with another alternative.

    It would show that an MVP is independent from Microsoft, but with these kind of answers more trustfull, that he is not only lead by the goal to keep the three characters MVP.

    I've never seen MSFT moderators do these kind of things, so let us not blame Microsoft, but the over acting non MSFT moderators who do this kind of things

    In fact your answer was putting the Microsoft OS systems on a much higher level then Linux.

    By the way, I think it is not needed to name the moderator who did it, everybody can make a mistake, we are here not to judge.


    Success
    Cor
    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:11 PM
  • By the way, I think it is not needed to name the moderator who did it, everybody can make a mistake, we are here not to judge.


     

    Cor, an unnamed somebody has tagged your post Abusive.

     

    That is standard procedure in the Forum Moderator's Guide for Etiquette.   Don't take it personally.   <snip>

    Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:19 AM
  • My friend, you are getting far to worked up about this.  I'd just like a clear answer from an admin as to if there is an offical policy to censor proposed non-MS solutions.

     

    Forum Moderation Guide: Managing Posts and Threads: Deleting Posts and Threads

    Moderators have the ability to delete posts and threads.  However, deletion can be seen as a form of censorship, so use caution when deleting posts.

    Deleting posts should only be done under these circumstances:

     

    I didn't find  "Try www.linuxmint.com"  among the reasons.    You'll need to sign in there to read the rest of this wiki.

    Thursday, July 22, 2010 7:11 AM
  •  

    Abusive am I?    Well, here's another violation then.  I'll post the whole list of published guidelines.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=Forum+Moderation+Guide&as_sitesearch=microsoft.com

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/moderating-microsoft-forums.aspx

     

    Direct links.   Model_m can grep it for the term censored.  Cor can lookup abusive.  Me, I'll search for both.

    Thursday, July 22, 2010 8:08 AM
  • You'll need to define what a 'product' is. There are tons of references to code samples that are not supplied by MS and to helpful websites not created by MS.
    Monday, July 26, 2010 6:32 PM
  • I just noticed two of six threads I replied to were found to be useless, and locked.     My avatar is remindful of another era too.


    I thought this kind of "avatars" (identicons) were abolished some time ago?


    I just noticed my account profile has been edited.    This is the last thread I posted to.  Is there a connection?


    My screen name was originally L.F.O.D.   ( Welcome L.F.O.D.! ).

    Now it is followed by a space and underscore_  .  My default avatar was an aqua swastika.

     

    You forgot one.   http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Profile/en-US/?user=L.F.O.D.

    Sunday, August 8, 2010 6:25 AM
  • I just had two posts deleted earlier today by ***** ****** in the thread   Can I download Windows 7 online and use my purchased key.  It is now locked.  My first deleted post included direct links to Digital River.  My second deleted post was as follows, verbatim:

    "No need to be so abrupt.   Which of those did I violate by restating links to Digital River, an authorized MS fulfillment distributor?"

     

    Before we decide I was inappropriate to post links to Digital River


    I just got a post deleted again, this time from thread  Digital river download .


    Ahem.

     

    Friday, October 22, 2010 1:21 PM