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Proposing own replies as answers ? RRS feed

  • Question

  • Hi All,

    Recently there has been some confusion (at the MSDN SharePoint 2010 Forums) on proposing own replies as answers . Now, proposing never entitles that the reply is the answer for the thread. It is in the hands of the thread starter or an moderator to mark it as an answer.

    Personally I dont see any wrong or harm done by proposing our own replies as answers. We users spend time here in forums, try to answer the queries and if we feel we have utilized our valuable time in helping someone, what is wrong in proposing our reply as an answer?

    It would be good if moderators can respect the users' reply and also support them when they propose their reply as answers.

    Thanks.
    Regards,
    Chakkaradeep || SharePoint Developer - MCTS SharePoint Dev, WSS Dev
    http://www.intergen.co.nz || Twitter: http://twitter.com/chakkaradeep || http://www.chakkaradeep.com
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:07 PM

All replies

  • Chakkaradeep, I spend a ton of time on here like you as you can see by my 2200+ posts, but from my point of view, it is very presumptuous to propose your own reply as an answer, because you don't actually know if it's the answer.  Sure, you may think it is, but it may not actually answer the OP's question.  Sure, the OP has the right to mark it or not, but they will mark it whether you propose it yourself or not.  I have seen many people propose their own answers when they were actually wrong or only answered a fraction of the real question.  Additionally, I'd say that about half of the threads get marked answers from moderators, and in a lot of those cases, they have to make a judgement call on if they think it was answered properly or not by relying on either their own knowledge or US - the populace who read threads and propose others' answers.  If you propose your own answer, then _I_ can't propose your answer, which means a moderator can't know how another trusted member of the forum feels about it.  I can click that it's helpful, but it doesn't show that I did it, whereas if you allow me to propose your answer, there's a very high chance it will get marked as such by a moderator.

    Just another point of view from someone who spends a ton of time here and also likes to have answers marked.
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:26 PM
  • Thanks for the clarification @Clayton.

    >> because you don't actually know if it's the answer

    That entirely depends on the experience I think. If you had faced the same problem and you know the fix, then you know that its indeed the answer.

    If moderators and others are so concerned about this, why don't Microsoft update the forum rules?

    A simple confirmation from Microsoft will be good here.

    Thanks.

    Regards,
    Chakkaradeep || SharePoint Developer - MCTS SharePoint Dev, WSS Dev
    http://www.intergen.co.nz || Twitter: http://twitter.com/chakkaradeep || http://www.chakkaradeep.com
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:40 PM
  • They may do just that, or they may say it's ok.  Good thread either way.
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:42 PM
  • Non-Microsoft Moderators have often asked Microsoft to set up a rule for this.

    Like Clayton I feel that " it is very presumptuous to propose your own reply as an answer".

    I will either ignore them (never upgrade them to answer level) or will remove the propose mark.

    Such markings waste my time. I do regular sweeps of forums to check out those posts that have been proposed as an answer. When proposed by someone else these proposals consistently have value. Proposals by people with too large an opinion of themselves very often don't have any value. So half my sweeping time is wasted because of people like you, Chakkaradeep, who seem to think that they are so important as to not need to follow standard forum conventions.

    This "It would be good if moderators can respect the users' reply and also support them when they propose their reply as answers." is merely an indication of how little you understand. As a Moderator I will respect your recommendation of **someone else's** post, but I will not respect you when you propose your own posts.



    P.S.

    >"Recently there has been some confusion (at the MSDN SharePoint 2010 Forums)"

    There has been no confusion. I have never approved of the self-proposing of posts and have carried that policy over from the older SP forums to the new SP 2010 forums. It always takes a while to catch up with offenders and to get them to change their (incorrect) ways hence the presence there of some few self-proposals that haven't yet been removed.
    FAQ sites: (SP 2010) http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com; (v3) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com and (WSS 2.0) http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com
    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.
    Friday, November 27, 2009 8:30 AM
  • @Mike - I am shocked with the way you have replied here. Everybody have their own opinions, and most people come to forums to contribute. But you seem to undervalue them just because they dont fit into your 'opinioins' circle. I never told that people who are proposing answers are great people or consider themselves great. All I was asking for was - if this is so important and determines the user's value - why dont we stress the fact and update the forum rules or standard forum conventions?

    I asked for a simple confirmation from Microsoft and hence the question is here in this Suggestions and Feedback forum. If you dont want any suggestions or feedback on this topic, better we can remove this thread.

    This thread is meant for discussion and not for any personal attacks (as in previous reply).

     
    Regards,
    Chakkaradeep || SharePoint Developer - MCTS SharePoint Dev, WSS Dev
    http://www.intergen.co.nz || Twitter: http://twitter.com/chakkaradeep || http://www.chakkaradeep.com
    Saturday, November 28, 2009 12:05 AM
  • In my opinion, the forum software should not allow immediate self proposal.  Nor should MVP's/moderators be allowed the ability to immediately mark their own posts as answers.

    When a moderator immediately marks their own post as answer it really annoys me.

    There should be a suitable delay before anyone except the OP (or a super-moderator) can change the status of a post.
    Saturday, November 28, 2009 2:12 AM

  • Chakkaradeep, you might better understand the replies here if you examine what led to TechWrighter's post.

    Saturday, November 28, 2009 3:10 AM

  • In my opinion, the forum software should not allow immediate self proposal.  Nor should MVP's/moderators be allowed the ability to immediately mark their own posts as answers.

    When a moderator immediately marks their own post as answer it really annoys me.

    There should be a suitable delay before anyone except the OP (or a super-moderator) can change the status of a post.



    Well Mr Borg, once again a post of mine has been sniped Already reported as abusive.  That is the moderators' secret signal here for me to speak my mind.  So I shall.


    Yes, I completely agree with you.  But don't stop short.  Moderators' self-marks should not accumulate points.  They should not have carte-blanche to do that at all.  Moreover, self-marked (or buddy-marked) posts should never receive any visual recognition, such as a green-check.  Especially those whose content is nothing beyond shrug-off or some form of evangelism.  Those posts should get negative points on principle alone.  In my opinion, right now the entire forum database should be audited, all such posts purged, and their points retroactively subtracted.  Those moderators found to be habitual in this way should be put on notice.

    At minimum, an automated policy should be implemented that enforces a percentage limit for self-honor points.  Like 10% or less.
    Saturday, November 28, 2009 9:26 PM
  • As a Moderator I will respect your recommendation of **someone else's** post, but I will not respect you when you propose your own posts.

    What about if the person that posted the question comes back and confirms that my post answered their question, but didn't mark a post as an answer?  That seems like a legitimate use of the feature to draw mod attention to a thread.

    I think after spending a little time in the forums, the moderators should have a good understanding for the people that are posting reliable information, and the people that are self-marking posts for no obvious reason.

    Many times, especially with hardware/driver issues, the thing that solved the issue for you may not work for someone else.  There's often a very specific set of conditions that happened to be true on your setup, which is almost guaranteed to be at least a little different from the setup that someone else has.


    (Note:  I work at MSFT, but not on the forums team.)
    Want to know if your current hardware & software will work with Windows 7? Check out these links: **Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor ** **Windows 7 Compatibility Center**
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:17 AM
  • Mark, what I've seen is VERY diligent monitoring by the MS forums team.  I can't tell you how many times I've answered a thread properly, and either the OP said, "Thank you, that worked" or just never returned to acknowledge the answer, and in both situations, someone from the MS forums team makes a post asking the OP if my reply answered their question.  If they never mark the answer or come back, then they mark it for me if the person already said it did or they make a judgement call if the OP simply never came back.  I have had tons of answers marked by the MS team where the OP just never bothered to close out the thread.  They are very good about this.  There have been one or two occasions where I asked multiple times in a thread if my reply could be marked as an answer when the OP just didn't understand the system, and I eventually used "report abuse" just to make sure a mod saw it (not actual abuse - just making sure a mod looked).
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:02 PM
  • >What about if the person that posted the question comes back and confirms that my post answered their question, but didn't mark a post as an answer?  >That seems like a legitimate use of the feature to draw mod attention to a thread.

    Most (I would say 95% at least) of the self proposals occur long before the person that posted the question comes back and says that the post answered the question. Many occur within a couple of minutes of the post itself.

    These are causing the problem and are such a large percentage that getting rid of the whole self-proposing possibility is for me the only solution. I don't have time to check every self-proposal to see the time it happened and whether it was after and in response to a post from the original poster saying the sanswer solved the problem.

    Besides, other people will also see such a response from the OP and have the possibility of then proposing the post as an answer. There is no need for the poster to do it himself.
    FAQ sites: (SP 2010) http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com; (v3) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com and (WSS 2.0) http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com
    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:02 PM
  • >Mark, what I've seen is VERY diligent monitoring by the MS forums team. 

    The MS team that Clayton is talking about is no doubt the team for the SharePoint forums. They have a very good (Microsoft) team leader who makes sure that they do a very good job of forum moderation and do not - as it is rumoured that some teams do - concentrate on getting their own figures up. The team leader is also willing to respond to comments from non-MS Moderators to improve their service even further.

    I'm not sure - in fact I doubt it - that the statement will apply to all MS support teams in the forums as how they work seems to depend very much on their team leader.
    FAQ sites: (SP 2010) http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com; (v3) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com and (WSS 2.0) http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com
    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:06 PM
  • Yes, my experience is with the SharePoint forum only.

    PS.  *chuckle* at derosnec's self-proposed answer.  =P
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:32 PM

  • after spending a little time in the forums, the moderators should have a good understanding for the people that are posting reliable information




    Isn't a reply to a Question Thread implicitly a proposed answer?



    To emphasize my point, I have proposed my first post above as answer.  When it gets green-checkmarked, I will have more points and medals to tout my indisputable enviable status.  Notice shortly after that revealing post was submitted, the thread type was changed to Discussion instead.  That happened because it was embarrassing to the moderator who so readily marked that person's posts as answers.  Examine that person's profile to see a green checkmarked pattern.  Examine the content of those posts and decide for yourself.

    Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:36 PM
  • Notice shortly after that revealing post was submitted, the thread type was changed to Discussion instead.  That happened because it was embarrassing to the moderator who so readily marked that person's posts as answers.
    derosnec

    Just for clarification.

    There were 2 posts in that thread that were marked as proposed answers. No posts in that thread were ever marked as an answer.

     

    Proposed As Answer byDr. Strangelove Saturday,October 17, 2009 4:54 AM
    and
    Proposed As Answer byTechwrighter Saturday,October 17, 2009 5:24 AM

    Also, in the last post to that thread on Monday, November 23, 2009 7:42 AM you said:

    "Carey, I just know you hated this post of mine.  So I cannot imagine how you overlooked it while you were deleting all the rest of my posts.
    Finish the job.  Delete this one too!"

    However, you only made 3 posts to that thread and the first 2 have this notation:


    Deleted by dеrosnеc  Monday, November 23, 2009 4:12 AM Marked as Spam
    and
    Deleted by dеrosnеc  Monday, November 23, 2009 4:12 AM Marked as Spam

    Why you would delete your own posts, mark them as "Marked as Spam" and then blame someone else for deleting them is confusing? Is this some type of self flagellation?
    Just for clarity.


    Ronnie Vernon MVP

     

    Sunday, November 29, 2009 7:20 PM

  • Yes Ronnie, we already have a dispute about my supposedly marking my own posts as spam and deleting them after my previous profile was banned.  There are plenty of threads here in this very forum that we may delve into next.  I suppose it was me that also knocked my 1000+ point down to 95 yesterday, is that correct?  Thank you for plolluting this thread too.


    Do you plan to delete my posts here, or just lock this thread?

    Sunday, November 29, 2009 7:32 PM

  • Yes Ronnie, we already have a dispute about my supposedly marking my own posts as spam and deleting them after my previous profile was banned.  There are plenty of threads here in this very forum that we may delve into next.  I suppose it was me that also knocked my 1000+ point down to 95 yesterday, is that correct?  Thank you for plolluting this thread too.


    Do you plan to delete my posts here, or just lock this thread?


    Derosnec

    While you may dispute the time frame when those posts were deleted, you cannot dispute the fact that the profile in question was under your control when those posts were deleted. Only the owner of a profile can post with that profile.

    Hope this helps.


    Ronnie Vernon MVP
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 7:47 PM

  • Ronnie, you show that post was deleted at 4:12 AM as spam, by me.  Yet look at my quote on the bottom of that page, with my new profile, I taunted Carey to delete that quoted post too, at 7:42 AM.  That quoted, supposedly deleted post still existed at that time.  I was watching the ongoing onslaught, Ronnie.  I saw my posts disappear one-by-one.  I know what happened.  You do too.







    Ronnie, review  Lockedthis,  this,  this,  and this.     We'll just have to wait for MSFT to resolve it, won't we?








    In the meantime, stalking and tagging my posts Already reported as abusive, even a forum bug report, it's getting really old, Ronnie.
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:08 PM

  • Ronnie, you show that post was deleted at 4:12 AM as spam, by me.  Yet look at my quote on the bottom of that page, with my new profile, I taunted Carey to delete that quoted post too, at 7:42 AM.  That quoted, supposedly deleted post still existed at that time.  I was watching the ongoing onslaught, Ronnie.  I saw my posts disappear one-by-one.  I know what happened.  You do too.
    derosnec

    Your habit of saving everything you post is well known. I imagine that you also know how to use <blockquote> </blockquote>.

    Regards,


    Ronnie Vernon MVP
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 10:28 PM

  • derosnec

    Your habit of saving everything you post is well known. I imagine that you also know how to use <blockquote> </blockquote>.

    Regards,


    Ronnie Vernon MVP





    Tell that to Gordon 7, who quoted me 4 days after I supposedly deleted my post as spam.






    Yes I see.  Gordon 7 is conspiring against you too, Ronnie.
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 10:49 PM
  • Yes Ronnie, we already have a dispute about my supposedly marking my own posts as spam and deleting them after my previous profile was banned.  There are plenty of threads here in this very forum that we may delve into next.  I suppose it was me that also knocked my 1000+ point down to 95 yesterday, is that correct?  Thank you for plolluting this thread too.

    Do you plan to delete my posts here, or just lock this thread?

    Maybe a moderator has to take over ownership of a profile before it can be locked or deleted?

    This might be similar to the registry or ntfs file system, when you are prevented from changing settings even though you are Administrator.

    That could explain what you are seeing.

    I still think we should see tracking information on deleted posts too.  But that's a whole 'nother issue.
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 10:53 PM


  • Thank you Brian Borg, but you are just inviting harassment from URMax again.


    Sunday, November 29, 2009 11:03 PM
  • Maybe a moderator has to take over ownership of a profile before it can be locked or deleted?

    This might be similar to the registry or ntfs file system, when you are prevented from changing settings even though you are Administrator.

    That could explain what you are seeing.

    I still think we should see tracking information on deleted posts too.  But that's a whole 'nother issue.
    Hi Brian

    This is way beyond a moderators capability. The only people who can access user profiles are the STO Administrators.

    Hope this helps.


    Ronnie Vernon MVP
    Monday, November 30, 2009 2:40 AM

  • Hi Brian

    This is way beyond a moderators capability. The only people who can access user profiles are the STO Administrators.

    Hope this helps.


    Ronnie Vernon MVP





    Apparently, arrangements can be made.





    I suppose that posts marked as answer, or even complete threads can be deleted if you know how.
    Monday, November 30, 2009 3:16 AM


  • How come my reply to Shaon Shan MSFT was just deleted?

    It explains that I couldn't possibly have deleted my own post marked as answer.  Here's a scratchpad area that contains that awol post.

    How come, Ronnie?


    Monday, November 30, 2009 4:10 AM
  • Clayton - In the forums I track, I've seen an excessive number of posts marked as an answer by forum staff when it's obvious that the posts could not possibly be an answer to the question.  I don't think this helps anyone.

    Mike - Yes, there's a lot of difference in the way the various MS forum teams tag answers across the forums.  That's unfortunate.  But I don't think there's any hope of changing that. :(  Way too many people involved. 

     


    Want to know if your current hardware & software will work with Windows 7? Check out these links: **Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor ** **Windows 7 Compatibility Center**
    Monday, November 30, 2009 5:51 AM
  • I appreciate that there is lot of discussion going on here, but can we please stick to the topic of this thread?

    Thanks.
    Regards,
    Chakkaradeep || SharePoint Developer - MCTS SharePoint Dev, WSS Dev
    http://www.intergen.co.nz || Twitter: http://twitter.com/chakkaradeep || http://www.chakkaradeep.com
    Tuesday, December 1, 2009 12:22 AM


  • I trust you are directing that to Ronnie, who intruded and trolled this thread with his off-topic subject.  One which frankly seems at this present moment to be at least as compelling as your self-honor points.



    derosnec

    Just to be clear, I came here to read and simply responded to your post which included comments and a link to a thread that you wanted the subject to include.

    But Chakkaradeep is right, we need to get back on topic here.

    Regards,

    _________________________
    Ronnie Vernon MVP
    Tuesday, December 1, 2009 2:49 AM
  • hi ,

    an other user that will no matter what he posts mark them as answer

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itproinstall/thread/2ea0f99c-5358-435b-900c-065741899ee0/

    donald bak , i just marked one there to see what will happen , ....

    have a nice day
    http://www.microsoft.com/security + http://www.microsoft-hohm.com/default.aspx + http://www.getpivot.com/ + http://photosynth.net/ + http://seadragon.com/ + http://blogs.technet.com/mmpc + http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/genuinewindows/default.aspx + http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/default.aspx + https://www.microsoft.com/security/portal/Shared/Resources.aspx#rss + http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/ + http://onecare.live.com/site/en-us/center/whatsnew.htm + Plagued by the Privacy Center? Learn how to remove it > http://blogs.msdn.com/securitytipstalk/ + http://blogs.technet.com/ecostrat/ + http://memory.dataram.com/products-and-services/software/ramdisk + 50 Windows Tips > http://windowsvj.com/wpblog/2009/12/windowsvj-xclusive-release-windows-7-tips-tricks-ebook/ + http://windowsteamblog.com/
    Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:59 PM
  • I honestly don't know which I prefer.

    I have submitted a few of mine before as the proposed answer, and more in the beginning because I didn't understand how it was 'suppose' to work...but really only more as a way to PING the original poster to review and accept if they agree. Because so many posters don't ever go back and mark something as the answer.

    However, I do think that if MS doesn't want us, the users trying to answer questions, NOT to submit ours as the answer...then most definately the Moderators should not be able to.  I could list allot of moderators that submit their own replies as the answer ALLOT.

    So Moderators should not be able to mark their own replies as the answer.  I have actually rarely seen one like that, that I personally agreed that it was answering the question.
    MSILinda SharePoint Architect
    Thursday, January 7, 2010 5:24 PM
  • hi ,

    some mods regardless of wheter or not the answer is on topic mark each post as answer , for example something gets posted in this forum regarding MSE , then a mod posts that this is not the forum , the Q should be posted again in the right forum , etc , ... but no answer or move at all to the correct forum , but post is marked as answer


    should we be done with the mark for answer ? or should each post be marked as such from eash user ?

    its funny to see sometimes how one mods removes the answer from a mod and proposes his or her own as answer instead , even when its not , ..... LoL

    have a nice day
    Scan with OneCare + 50 Windows 7even Tips + Plagued by the Privacy Center? Learn how to remove it + Threat Research & Response Blog + Sysinternals Live tools + PIVOT from Live Labs + See what Photosynth does best! + Microsoft Security + need help ? go to Microsoft Support + Microsoft Live Labs
    Thursday, January 7, 2010 7:18 PM
  • I honestly don't know which I prefer.

    I have submitted a few of mine before as the proposed answer, and more in the beginning because I didn't understand how it was 'suppose' to work...but really only more as a way to PING the original poster to review and accept if they agree. Because so many posters don't ever go back and mark something as the answer.

    However, I do think that if MS doesn't want us, the users trying to answer questions, NOT to submit ours as the answer...then most definately the Moderators should not be able to.  I could list allot of moderators that submit their own replies as the answer ALLOT.

    So Moderators should not be able to mark their own replies as the answer.  I have actually rarely seen one like that, that I personally agreed that it was answering the question.

    From what I've seen, the moderators generally only mark their own posts as answers if they're the only person that replied to the OP or if they replied with what they thought was a helpful post, and then the person never came back.

    But if there are other answers in a thread that are more correct than what the moderator has posted, and STILL the moderator tags their own post as an answer, then I think you should out those moderators on this thread :)  (The threads would probably have to be evaluated on a case by case basis)

    Mark
    (Not a member of the forums team, not a moderator)
    Want to know if your current hardware & software will work with Windows 7? Check out these links: **Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor ** **Windows 7 Compatibility Center**
    Friday, January 8, 2010 5:54 AM
  • >But if there are other answers in a thread that are more correct than what the moderator has posted, 

    I avoid this completely by never marking my own posts even if someone else has proposed them as the answer and I know they are the answer.

    However you should be careful of such sweeping statements (including what followed in your text). Moderators don't have the time to (especially in long threads) go through all the posts in a thread to see which post is the most correct. Instead if they see a post that provides and answer to the original question they will mark it as such and then go on to another thread.

    The main thing after all is that the thread is marked as including an answer so that people wishing to help other forum users know that they can concentrate their efforts on other threads. It is not to to have the best post among several good posts marked as the answer.

    Perhaps you should try being a moderator and see what it is like !  Things are never as easy as they seem from the outside. Threads are not re-visited all the time - even 24 hours a day wouldn't be enough for that - and  so if there is an answer in the thread that is marked as such there is no reason for any Moderator to re-look at the thread to see if a better answer has come in the meantime. Even if there are three (say) good answers in a thread when it is processed it's not certain (and too much to expect) that the Moderator has time to read and evaluate all three in order to decide which is the best one. Even then his "best one" won't be the opinion of all the readers of the thread.

    Mike Walsh

    FAQ sites: (SP 2010) http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com; (v3) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com and (WSS 2.0) http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com
    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.
    Monday, January 11, 2010 8:55 AM
  • You're saying "perhaps you should try to be a moderator"... But I don't think the regular folks can become the moderators as easy.

    Say, I indicated my desire to become a moderator here and in ASP.NET forums a long time ago and yet still I'm not a moderator.
    Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming. (c) by Donald Knuth

    Naomi Nosonovsky, Sr. Programmer-Analyst

    My blog
    Monday, January 11, 2010 2:32 PM
    Moderator
  • You're saying "perhaps you should try to be a moderator"... But I don't think the regular folks can become the moderators as easy.

    Say, I indicated my desire to become a moderator here and in ASP.NET forums a long time ago and yet still I'm not a moderator.
    Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming. (c) by Donald Knuth

    Naomi Nosonovsky, Sr. Programmer-Analyst

    My blog

    hi ,

    yep that seems to be a problem also , despite the fact that there is room for at least 20 more , especially if they would be from different time zones , or half mods so that they could mark posts , make a sticky , move to the right thread and delete abuse or faul language , ....

    the more i see the more i think that many have given up thanks to all the problems , ... and thats sad

    you would do well in the asp forums !

    now an owner needs to make you mod , .... but most never show

    have a nice day
    Scan with OneCare + 50 Windows 7even Tips + Plagued by the Privacy Center? Learn how to remove it + Threat Research & Response Blog + Sysinternals Live tools + PIVOT from Live Labs + See what Photosynth does best! + Microsoft Security + need help ? go to Microsoft Support + Microsoft Live Labs + TRANSLATOR
    Monday, January 11, 2010 3:47 PM

  • Of all I am participating in this thread thanks to this post
    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/sharepoint2010general/thread/df68fb1f-b30b-4d9f-b611-9db50737453e/#07fa981b-1170-4bf2-bce9-690c72193b55

    Have a good read. I strongly believe that the actual issue and my answer got side tracked and the powers to be (then) had 'whatever' attitude after I asked (very nicely) if all was good.

    #1 I have never been told that your style of answering is not correct. This was the first time. On review I do agree that my answer was to the point (rather bit too short) but it was at the time when SP2010 Beta had been released and my priority then was to answer as many questions as I could, given that there were select few around to answer.
    #2 I don't propose my own answer, in this case I did, since the moderator (of the day) had agreed that my answer was correct. The moderator (of the day) advised that I should give more details, etc. I made the changes to my answer, asked nicely if the presentation was better and also if it qualified for an answer?

    Tell me what was wrong asking for it? I proposed my answer, got unmarked, I acknowledged that one should not mark the answer (I did mark my answer since I had seencouple of similiar situations and also moderators mark their own answer in that time frame - maybe to alleviate SP2010 solutions, so gave this a shot to see if practices(rules) have changed). Then I asked nicely if the presentation was better and lo behold! I was slammed by the moderator (of the day) that I  should not waste time, etc. (Read the post) I am open to suggestions.

    Since that day, I never went back to the post, did not care if it was marked or not, as the purpose of the post was to give solution.

    I have just been notified that my solution has been marked as an answer. That spurred up this reply, plus I had been on holidays ...

    In my opinion proposing own answers really depends on case by case basis.

    For the moderators to exercise power and combine it with EGO is just not accepatable.
     -> I will either ignore them (never upgrade them to answer level) or will remove the propose mark. -> (Refer begining of this post)
     
     Now that's ego+power. What about people who come looking for solutions and see couple of suggestions but the answer has not been marked .. where will they go then? May be to non-Microsoft forums...
     
     Secondly I would recommend having a pool of moderators. I have seen SharePoint forums moderated by only handful of people. This does put them under pressure, etc and hence they have a major task on hand to deal with. Hence statements like
     
     -> Such markings waste my time. I do regular sweeps of forums to check out those posts that have been proposed as an answer. When proposed by someone else these proposals consistently have value. Proposals by people with too large an opinion of themselves very often don't have any value. ->  (Refer begining of this post)
     
     Surely contributors to the forum are undervalued ...
     
     So coming back to proposing own replies as answers, I agree in situations as brought up by Mark (MSFT]
     
     ->
    What about if the person that posted the question comes back and confirms that my post answered their question, but didn't mark a post as an answer?  That seems like a legitimate use of the feature to draw mod attention to a thread.

    -<

    Also agree with Mark on this [MSFT] - .... I think after spending a little time in the forums, the moderators should have a good understanding for the people that are posting reliable information, and the people that are self-marking posts for no obvious reason.

    Sadly the moderator (of the day) did not consider my profile ( I know it's NOT 3 Star or 5 Star) I did not register y'day, mate!

    P.S.I have used moderator (of the day), since the moderator of that particular forum is not a moderator any more ...
    Blog: Alpesh Nakar's Blog | Twitter: Follow Alpesh on Twitter |SharePoint Resources: Just SharePoint Resource Center | Follow Just SharePoint updates on Twitter
    Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:59 AM
  • Following with the suggestions about more moderators, I also reached out to see if I could become a moderator due to these reasons:
    - I spend a lot of time in the SharePoint forums, and 4-5 very specific ones where I could provide extra coverage
    - I have a lot of posts and answers, so I think I am able to provide value to the forum
    - I see how things are moderated when done properly, so I know what needs to be done (move threads to the proper forum, mark proposed answers that are good, mark answers I know are good that aren't proposed yet, etc.)

    I asked Mike Walsh what to do, and he said he had no say in it but that he thought you had to be an MS employee or MVP.  I later asked a SharePoint forum moderator from Microsoft who is very helpful to me and everyone, and he forwarded my request to the team lead.  The response was that if I maintain my same pace for 12 months, then they'd nominate me for SharePoint MVP and then consider me as a moderator.  I maintained my 12 months, they followed through with the nomination, but then it kind of went into a black hole.  I didn't hear back and didn't get notified by any MVP leads of the nomination, so becoming a moderator seems very difficult.  The forum desperately needs more mods.
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:48 AM
  • However you should be careful of such sweeping statements (including what followed in your text). Moderators don't have the time to (especially in long threads) go through all the posts in a thread to see which post is the most correct. Instead if they see a post that provides and answer to the original question they will mark it as such and then go on to another thread.
    I understand that a moderator may not always have time to read all posts in a thread. Based on the responses from the moderator, you can often get a clear idea whether or not they've read all of the posts in the thread.

    If they are consistently marking only their posts as answers when there are other more useful posts in the thread, then I don't think that's right.  If someone sees that sort of behavior, they should flag it.
    The main thing after all is that the thread is marked as including an answer so that people wishing to help other forum users know that they can concentrate their efforts on other threads. It is not to to have the best post among several good posts marked as the answer.
    IF the question has actually been answered, then yes, it's important to get a response tagged.  I generally agree with you on the multiple answer thing, but there are also many cases where it's reasonable.  Unfortunately, I see many cases where it's abused too.
    Perhaps you should try being a moderator and see what it is like ! Things are never as easy as they seem from the outside. Threads are not re-visited all the time - even 24 hours a day wouldn't be enough for that - and  so if there is an answer in the thread that is marked as such there is no reason for any Moderator to re-look at the thread to see if a better answer has come in the meantime. Even if there are three (say) good answers in a thread when it is processed it's not certain (and too much to expect) that the Moderator has time to read and evaluate all three in order to decide which is the best one. Even then his "best one" won't be the opinion of all the readers of the thread.
    If I was mod for a day, I would rule with an iron fist!!! :)   I understand that you have a tough job.  My reason for stepping into this forum is to offer input/suggestions on ways to improve it for everyone.

    I wasn't suggesting that a moderator go through a thread with a microscope and select the absolute best answer, or that they monitor the thread constantly.  I understand that this isn't possible.

    You mentioned that as a moderator, you rely on input from the community to tag answers.  But you've totally written off self-proposed posts (no matter the content).  So even though there are people trying to help, they can't.  Hopefully you can find ways to encourage people to propose answers from other users more often.
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    Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:59 AM
  • >You mentioned that as a moderator, you rely on input from the community to tag answers.  But you've totally written off self-proposed posts (no matter the content).  So even >though there are people trying to help, they can't. 

    They can help. They can propose the posts of *other people* (see below).

    There is typically a lower quality requirement before people propose their own posts compared to the quality standard set on the posts from other people before proposal happens.

    > Hopefully you can find ways to encourage people to propose answers from other users more often.

    When I post asking them not to propose their own posts, I also ask them to propose the good answers of other people. The more people who do this the less need there is for people to even think they ought to propose their own posts.
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    Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:49 AM
  • > I asked Mike Walsh what to do, and he said he had no say in it but that he thought you had to be an MS employee or MVP. 


    Firstly it's a pity about the non-MVP but there are all kinds of reasons why it might not happen at a particular quarter begin. Beginning of 2Q hopefully.

    On the quote from me I can't remember exactly what I wrote so I'm not sure if I was quite so 100% on the line that you *need* to be an MVP or not. Certainly it helps, but there are cases in - for instance - the SharePoint 2010 forums of non_MS; non-MVP people being made Moderators there such as the starter of this thread.

    (and equally a case of a SharePoint MVP who once was a Moderator there being dropped from moderation :))

    so while it no doubt helps, it's not 100% necessary to be either.
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    Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:54 AM
  • Mike, your comments were confirmed by the MS team when I asked, which was what made it surprising when Chakkradeep got chosen in SP2010.  I don't know what led to that, and I certainly don't disagree with him being selected (I agree, in fact), but it seemed contrary to what I had been told.  I have spent far more time and answered far more questions, but was told to continue for a full year before getting consideration.  The MVP part is not even that big of a deal.  I have been nominated for 3 straight quarters by a current InfoPath MVP, so the MS team was supposed to be additional, but I think it got lumped in with my existing nomination when they saw it in the queue.  I believe I'll be up for consideration on april 1st (Q2), but there are plenty of other very deserving people who don't have MVP, so I can't complain.  I'm only curious as to why it's so difficult to get additional mods added, especially when highly-active people are willing to spend their free time helping.


    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:09 AM
  • hi ,

    what i dont understand is that when some modsove a thread or post , and who dont help , even when they docan post an answer mark everything as an answer ? why ?

    as reward for moving the thread ? its not nice to see how people go off like * THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THREAD , POST SOMEWHERE ELSE or CANT YOU READ ? *

    have a nice day


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  • Yes, some of the forums have moderators that are FORUM SNOBS.

    I have seen this a lot on some of the Microsoft Answers Forums, especially the Internet Explorer one.

    Before Windows 7 was released they would do this if you mentioned Win7.  Now the links for IE in XP, Vista and Windows 7 all lead to the same forum.  Yet the breadcrumbs always show it now as being under Windows 7.  Maybe the moderators don't realize it.  Or maybe they don't care.

    Gee, moderators, if you know the answer go ahead and post it--even if it is the wrong forum.  And then move the thread.
    Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:20 PM
  • Well I think I was pretty sure before, but now this thread has made me feel very strongly that Microsoft should get rid of this point system system and medals all together. 

    I went back and looked at ALLOT of the SharePoint threads, and there are just SO MANY people that are clicking REPLY and entering useless answers it is really frustrating. On allot of my recent posts I am very careful to enter very detailed questions so that I have provided all the information I need. And these people with 2-4 badges keep replying with stupid replies (I won't call them proposed answers!) where they have NO CLUE what I am asking technically or the answer and many replies seem like they didn't even finish reading my post.

    It is SO clear they are clicking REPLY just to get the point for entering a reply!!  The orignal poster should be able to mark replies as NEGATIVE taking away points or at least not letting them get the reply point, if we the poster feel it was not a true effort!  If Microsoft can't change it then just do away with all points, medals, and sorry...but "MVP" status.  We have some truely great MVPs in SharePoint...but I know more SharePoint consultants that are not MVP status that know even more.  I also have friends that are MVPs so believe me I know the purpose of it and why. 

    Please note I am not referring to the MVPs on any of these Forums, I don't personally know any of them here. Mike does a great job on our SharePoint forums.  I am referring to many others across the US and abroad I know. I have had so many MVPs consultants and MSFT consultants tell my customers things that are down right wrong and more often of personal opinion, but the customer takes is as if Mr. Gates himself said it. Then I have to go waste my time proving by Microsoft's own papers that they were wrong. They are both just very flawed systems.
    Linda Chapman | SharePoint Consultant | My Blog: http://LindaLeeChapman.Spaces.Live.com
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:31 AM
  • >its not nice to see how people go off like * THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THREAD , POST SOMEWHERE ELSE or CANT YOU READ ? * 

    It's really not nice.

    As a Moderator if you have just moved the twentieth post that day that posted a question with Workflow even in the Title to a forum other than a forum clearly labelled  Workflow (an example only) you are tempted to strike out. If you do (and I'm sure we've all done it when frustration hits the high spot) then you are doomed to being quoted as a monster for ever more.

    In other words (and my letting off steam tended to be on the lines of "This is a Workflow question. The Workflow forum is the forum for Workflow questions. Moving this workflow question to the workflow forum" rather than massive use of CAPS and certainly not "CAN'T YOU READ") we are all human. 

    That's not an excuse though just an explanation and I'm finding with age (and seeing this come back to bite me) that I'm taking a deep breath and then just moving these posts without much more than the reason "Workflow q". 

    (I wish actually it were possible to move threads without being forced to give a reason because that's what starts you going)



    FAQ sites: (SP 2010) http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com; (v3) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com and (WSS 2.0) http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com
    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 5:11 AM
  • Valid points, Linda, but as someone who isn't an MVP but wants to become one, I think it's important to remember that MVP is not an award for who knows the most but rather for who contributes the most.  Of course, replying a lot to get points isn't "contributing the most," but you also don't just magically get MVP for doing that.  I have 2500+ posts, nearly 700 answers, and nearly 13000 points all in one year.  One year is the evaluation timeframe for MVP, but I've been nominated multiple times with no luck - even nominated by the forum team itself.  So, I don't think too many people are getting rewarded for just replying with meaningless posts to get points (1 point at a time).

    I also think that it's less often that an MVP is completely clueless than it is that the MVP knows a lot, so to propose that it goes away and remove all reward from those who have earned it seems illogical.
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 5:21 AM
  • Clayton, actually it is 2 points at a time.  See:  How are my points calculated?

    Linda, there is a way to award a negative point instead of a positive one.  Try right-clicking the green triangle and opening another tab instead.  But this is just an exploit of a bug in the forum software. 

    I agree with your idea about the OP being able to subtract points.  Of course, the OP can un-mark an answer or proposed answer, but I think a lot of users do not know this.  Perhaps the email notification to the OP could spell this out.
    • Edited by Brian Borg Friday, January 15, 2010 12:22 AM Bad link
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 5:25 PM
  • thanks for the tip, but the faq's at http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/help#312.

    so, if you could reply to a question (+2), mark it as answer (+10), vote it as helpful (+5), and do that 10 times a day, you'd go from zero to 15000 points in just under 3 months.  not even counting help from friends, that's 5-stars in 3 months, from scratch.

    Clayton, you've been doing it the hard way.   ;)

    Thursday, January 14, 2010 6:25 PM
  • thanks for the tip, but the faq's at http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/help#312.

    so, if you could reply to a question (+2), mark it as answer (+10), vote it as helpful (+5), and do that 10 times a day, you'd go from zero to 15000 points in just under 3 months.  not even counting help from friends, that's 5-stars in 3 months, from scratch.

    Clayton, you've been doing it the hard way.   ;)


    It doesn't work, grits.

    You don't get any points for self proposal and you can't vote on your own post.
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 6:59 PM
  • >its not nice to see how people go off like * THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THREAD , POST SOMEWHERE ELSE or CANT YOU READ ? * 

    It's really not nice.

    As a Moderator if you have just moved the twentieth post that day that posted a question with Workflow even in the Title to a forum other than a forum clearly labelled  Workflow (an example only) you are tempted to strike out. If you do (and I'm sure we've all done it when frustration hits the high spot) then you are doomed to being quoted as a monster for ever more.

    In other words (and my letting off steam tended to be on the lines of "This is a Workflow question. The Workflow forum is the forum for Workflow questions. Moving this workflow question to the workflow forum" rather than massive use of CAPS and certainly not "CAN'T YOU READ") we are all human. 

    That's not an excuse though just an explanation and I'm finding with age (and seeing this come back to bite me) that I'm taking a deep breath and then just moving these posts without much more than the reason "Workflow q". 

    (I wish actually it were possible to move threads without being forced to give a reason because that's what starts you going)



    FAQ sites: (SP 2010) http://wssv4faq.mindsharp.com; (v3) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com and (WSS 2.0) http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com
    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.

    hi ,

    i know , i can understand that , but every day and every time , well then that person should do a stress control course or change job , ...

    there is a simple solution , let a pop up come when you make a new thread stating , check if this should go in that forum for example , we use it internally and it works great

    microsoft should make sure that people who come from lets say china or germany stay in the forums with the local language, that allready would help a big deal (!!)

    take 25 people and make them help mod to help out in moving threads and keeping things clean , the best would be a new forum , a full overhaul so that a fresh start ca be made

    have a nice day
    Scan with OneCare + 50 Windows 7even Tips + Plagued by the Privacy Center? REMOVE IT + Threat Research & Response Blog + Sysinternals Live tools + TRANSLATOR+ Photosynth + Microsoft Security + Microsoft SUPPORT + PIVOT from Live Labs + Microsoft Live Labs + Office 2010 beta + Get Windows LIVE!
  • thanks for the tip, but the faq's at http://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/help#312.

    so, if you could reply to a question (+2), mark it as answer (+10), vote it as helpful (+5), and do that 10 times a day, you'd go from zero to 15000 points in just under 3 months.  not even counting help from friends, that's 5-stars in 3 months, from scratch.

    Clayton, you've been doing it the hard way.   ;)


    It doesn't work, grits.

    You don't get any points for self proposal and you can't vote on your own post.

    Ding ding.
    SharePoint Architect || My Blog
    Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:46 PM
  • >there is a simple solution , let a pop up come when you make a new thread stating , check if this should go in that forum for example , we use it internally and it works great 

    I use My Forum Threads which has the same effect of indicating which threads haven't been read yet - i.e. which are new.

    It doesn't solve the problem. You still have to read the first post in the thread to see if it is on topic for the forum.

    -----------------

    One thing that the forum software could do to help would be if it were possible to Move a thread without opening a thread in a new page. 

    At present if you use review mode (which is faster than opening each new post) and then see from the text of the post that the thread is in the wrong forum, you have to open the thread (again - only this time on its own page) in order to Move it.

    (Clearly if the *Title* indicates that the thread is in the wrong place you don't review it you just open it in its own page immediately.)


    The other thing the forum software could help with is what happens if you do move something. If you were in My Forum Threads and opened a thread and then moved it, you would want to go back to the same page in My Forum Threads. But you are sent back to the first page of the (wrong) forum the thread was in before being moved. Leaving you to find your place in My Forum Threads again. Clearly if Move was possible in Review mode, this 'return to where you were' ought to be automatic (and would save a lot of time).








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    Complete Book Lists (incl. foreign language) on each site.
    Friday, January 15, 2010 5:31 AM
  • One value of proposing your own answer is when no one else is proposing any answer, and you have the only answer, and you think it's the right answer. And you can't get anyone to even check it out. At times like that, it's valuable to have. You are clearly letting the OP know (and the moderators) that you think you have the answer. And, if they disagree, unproposing it is just a simple click. And even if it's proposed, someone has to agree with you and mark it.

    Ed Price, Azure Development Customer Program Manager (Blog, Small Basic, Wiki Ninjas, Wiki)

    Answer an interesting question? Create a wiki article about it!

    Monday, December 5, 2016 2:32 PM
  • And how many times has a questioner/thread poster accepted a response as the solution to their question but failed to mark it as the answer?  In my time on the forums I've sen this happen quite often.

    In those cases it makes sense for the responder to propose their own response as the answer for at least two simple reasons - 1) It indicates to other users searching the forums that the post may contain a solution to their questions and 2) it serves as a reminder to the questioner/thread poster to mark the answer.

    Friday, April 14, 2017 12:36 PM
  • And how many times has a questioner/thread poster accepted a response as the solution to their question but failed to mark it as the answer?  In my time on the forums I've sen this happen quite often.

    In those cases it makes sense for the responder to propose their own response as the answer for at least two simple reasons - 1) It indicates to other users searching the forums that the post may contain a solution to their questions and 2) it serves as a reminder to the questioner/thread poster to mark the answer.

    Although self-propose may occasionally have value, in practice it is almost always an indicator of the poster's lack of humility. If a feature is almost always abused, it should be removed, or at least restricted (minimum waiting period perhaps).

    Same thing with selecting thread type as Discussion. Almost always this is novice error.


    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP

    Tuesday, April 18, 2017 9:58 AM