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"Start-Time Optimizer"? Then pick OneCare on the list. RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • Well, the new Start-Time Optimizer in OC 2 sure is a neat little thing to have implemented into the program, but have you thought about that OC is the biggest slowdown of them all?

    Nothing has slowed the boot-time as much as OneCare, and still the thing they're talking about is "Start-Time Optimizer". If you REALLY wanna feel a difference - OneCare should be picked on the list. Before they start to talk about other programs, they should be very aware of their own. Optimize OneCare's performance - then get to the other developers.

    Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:56 PM

All replies

  • Good point - OneCare does seem to have a negative impact on startup on some systems.

    -steve

    Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:41 PM
    Moderator
  • Not some systems.. ALL systems, if something. Let me tell you about my specs.

    It's a: | CPU: Core 2 Duo E6400 2,13 GHz 2MB L2 Cache | GPU: 7800GS AGP 256MB | RAM: 2GB XMS2 RAM PC2-6400 | SPU: X-Fi XtremeGamer |

     

    *My* system, is unresponsive for a long time - considering how fast it's - on the boot-up. And it's not only the boot-up we should talk about in general. OneCare should become a great example for how the footprint and responsiveness should be. The start-time is a very noticeable thing, but the footprint when running your system is what matters most of all things. After the start-time, you don't have to worry about that anymore - what's left is how the program has effect when you actually do what's important. CPU Time/Usage, RAM Usage, responsiveness, surfing speed. All that is what developers should consider as top-priority. Users should not be scared away for using software to protect themselves. Software is what's the biggest effect. Without optimized software, any optimization tools are almost pointless.

    Sunday, July 15, 2007 8:15 PM
  • We are in agreement.

    -steve

    Monday, July 16, 2007 12:12 AM
    Moderator
  • Thanks for pointing out what you find unsatisfactory. Please be aware that this is a beta version and there are bound to be a few things out of place.

     

    Startup Settings feature in OC V2.0 is about providing the end user more control on his/her machine. When a PC ages and user has installed many applications over that period, the machine tends to slow down. This usually happens because every application seems to come with a component that runs during startup. OneCare Startup Settings is a one stop feature to turn on/off startup applications that users need/dont need to run on their machines during startup.

     

    sarathm

    Microsoft Employee

    Tuesday, July 17, 2007 11:00 PM
  • Yes, yes - I'm very aware of these things. This was only a comment, but an important one that should be noticed. Besides, the tool in OneCare is far too simple since you don't seem to be able to even delete any startup entries that you don't want.
    Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:38 PM
  •  

     Mr. Murphy wrote:
    Besides, the tool in OneCare is far too simple since you don't seem to be able to even delete any startup entries that you don't want.

     

    As you might be aware, disabling a program from startup stops the item from starting up - the same effect as deleting the item, except that we can get it back when we need by enabling the item again.

     

     It is good that you find the tool simple, which is the basic philosophy behind OneCare.

     

    sarathm

    Microsoft Employee

    Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:25 AM
  • Yes, just to note - sorry if I was a little harsh in my message. I know that it should be almost the same thing - only that I don't want it to come back anymore if I can do that by removing the whole entry. I'd like to have a right-click menu where I can do that among other useful things. Basic users won't think about right-clicking, probably. Alteast I think it detects all startup areas, that's a good thing.
    Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:24 AM
  • Mr. Murphy,

     

    I've been involved with the Spybot Search & Destroy antispyware product for a few years now and it also has a similar System Startup list in its Advanced Mode Tools menu. Along with the ability to disable entries it also allows the user to delete them. Though truly advanced technical users generally have no issue, it's fairly common for non-technical users to delete an entry by mistake and then come asking for help to return the entry, which unfortunately there is no method to provide for.

     

    If this ability were to be included, it would require that a backup of the registry entry be created which could be selected for recovery. Looking at the technical issues involved I can see why the OneCare developers have made this choice, since the quantity of registry affected by retaining the entry is minor, but will undoubtedly save many typical users from themselves when they delete something that is actually required by their system. For this reason I must fully support their design as relatively foolproof which as was stated is a major criteria in the design of OneCare based on the audience it is intended to provide protection to.

     

    To state this more clearly, the Advanced Mode provided in Spybot Search & Destroy has proven itself to be a danger to the less technical user and a significant support issue. For this reason it is being largely removed from the most recent version also in beta test at this time. As an Advisor in the SS&D forums I'm happy to see this change and just as happy to see that the OneCare developers never plan to put their support infrastructure, including us, through this unnecessary headache.

     

    OneCareBear (Bitman - SS&D forums)

    Friday, July 20, 2007 4:08 PM
    Moderator
  • Thx, now I can see the point since this is mostly made for the Basic user. Just to give you a tip - here's my favorite program for startup editing - Startup Control Panel: http://www.mlin.net/StartupCPL.shtml

     

    It places itself in the Control Panel, and from there you can obviously make a shortcut placed on the Desktop. It gives all the startup points that software uses - even Run Once processes - without the overload of Windows dlls and the like. This makes it very comfortable to edit your software needs, AND also provides you with a "deleted"-tab - where you can restore the entries to anywhere you like. (Including moving startup entries to other sections. Wink )

     

    If OneCare weren't just for Basic users - that would be a great example IMO.

    Friday, July 20, 2007 9:55 PM
  • The key (no pun intended) is not to confuse the casual user. Though from your description I can see the potential value in the ability to move a startup entry between keys (sections), I'm a highly technically trained individual. The one thing I've learned from the last few years of helping with Spybot S&D and also supporting my sister's/nephew's and cousin's PCs is that the less options the better.

     

    If a solution can be created that involves a yes/no choice that's best, but if multiple choices must be available, the less options in the 'list' the better. That's not to say that options can't exist, but as I've stated here in the past, their cost/value relationship must tip heavily in the favor of added value. This is where all of the other products have failed, by believing that all added features add value, since someone will want to use them. The flaw here is that eventually even the technically inclined have trouble finding them in the sea of such features that results. Windows itself is a perfect example of such feature overbloat and has had to be cleverly redesigned to reduce the effects to some extent.

     

    In this case, the small number of people ever likely to benefit from the ability to 'move' startup entries is completely overwhelmed by the much larger number who might mis-use it. In fact, I'd have to guess that anyone who could understand a real reason behind making such a change could also manage to do it manually, though a bit less easily.

     

    I'm not putting down the idea you'll note, it's simply a cost benefit analysis of the value of the change versus the cost in terms of the support issues it's likely to generate. A subscription product at the price level of OneCare is extremely sensitive to such user support costs and couldn't continue to exist if this was ignored. This combined with the basic need to keep the product foolproof will result in many potential features never becoming available, though OneCare will actually be a better product because of it, a difficult paradox for some of the more technical users to understand.

     

    OneCareBear

    Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:33 AM
    Moderator
  • OneCareBear nailed the reasoning behind the startup app cleaner design correctly. We put a lot of work into the design of this feature to make it appear simple, yet be very powerful.

    There are a few things that happen in the background that one may or may not have noticed. Most other tools, including what Mr. Murphy mentioned, show the startup items for only the current user and not all the users on the machine.  OneCare displays startup items for all the user locations as well as common locations.

    Startup app cleaner lets you manage the startup items on your machine as a whole - you probably have accounts for your kids on the machine that they cannot manage by themselves (or viceversa). Disabling unnecessary logon items disables it for all users and they stand to gain from the maintenance you performed as well. Again, we are talking about a casual user who doesnt want to be bothered with all the technicalities.

    You must have noticed two columns beside the startup application - the usage and last used columns. Give it a little time and you would see these columns provide you information about the usage for application(s) corresponding to many startup items. You can decide based on that whether you want to turn an item off or not. This feature is unique to OneCare.

    OneCare also prompts the user to take action if there are too many startup apps that are not used very often by the user. This appears subtly in the monthly report.

    sarathm

    Microsoft Employee

    Saturday, July 21, 2007 5:16 PM