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NAS Backup Problems RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • Just upgraded to OneCare version 2.0.2500.14 and was looking forward to being able to backup all my PC’s to my NAS drive rather than individual DVD's, but am having fun configuring it to backup to my NAS device through Vista!

     

    I have a 305GB LAN-DRIVE (with 297GB fee space) plugged directly into my NETGEAR Router/Hub via Ethernet, and am using NAS-BASIC48B1, LOADER 70.

     

    Absolutely no problems seeing it, or using it normally via Vista (through shares etc), but have tried to set it up as the centralised backup source for my OneCare circle of 3 PC's with problems ...

     

    Setup my OneCare circle fine and can see the other machines status. (The hub PC is Vista and connected via Ethernet, whilst the other two are wireless (1x XP and 1x Vista).

     

    The XP backup seems to works fine, but the Vista PC's both come up with an error "Backup cannot continue because the backup location is not available. Make sure the device is connected and you have read/write permissions for the backup folders on the device" (Which I believe I have, as I can log into the share through Vista Explorer and create/delete files and folders etc).

     

    My share is called \\LAN-DRIVE\Backup\ and I have tried to change the share name to the IP address (\\192.168.0.26\Backup\) which finds it, and reverts it back to the \\LAN-DRIVE\Backup name in OneCare.

     

    Upon setup, I notice that OneCare is able to create the directory structure for the backups on the LAN-DRIVE e.g. the directory “Windows OneCare Backup” and the directories below which are the PC names.

     

    When I commence the backup operation on the Vista machines, I give the program permission to continue, it scans the PC for new or changed files successfully, and when I start the backup it gets to 6% on the hub PC, and 26% on the other Vista machine, before shooting to 100% and giving the error message.

     

    Any help gratefully received, as I'm getting rather frustrated with it now …… is it me, or my configuration?

    Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:09 PM

All replies

  • I hope it's simple...

     

    It sounds like a permissions problem. Here is the entry from Instant Help on setting permissions for the Centralized backup Share:

     

    Set user permissions for a centralized backup device

    Before you can use a shared network drive or external hard disk as a central backup device for all computers in your OneCare circle, you must make sure that all users on the network have the correct permissions to access it.

    By default, Windows XP uses simple file sharing. If the centralized backup device is connected to a computer that's running Windows XP Home Edition, all users on the network automatically have the correct permissions to access the device. However, if the centralized backup device is connected to a computer that's running Windows XP Professional Edition or Windows Vista, simple file sharing is turned off when you create a backup plan that uses a centralized backup device. Before you can access the device from other computers in your circle, you must set permissions that allow access to all users.

    To configure the shared backup device so that all users on the network can access it:
    1. On the computer that the backup device is connected to, navigate to the appropriate backup folder or drive.
    2. Right-click the backup folder or drive, and then click Properties.
    3. In Windows XP, on the Sharing tab, click Share this folder, and then click Permissions.

      –or–

      In Windows Vista, on the Sharing tab, click Advanced Sharing. Click Share this folder, and then click Permissions.

    4. Under Group or user names, make sure that Everyone is selected.
    5. Under Permissions for Everyone, in the Allow column, select the Full Control check box.

    It is possible that the file system on the NAS is the issue, so you might want to try mapping to the NAS on the Hub PC and Sharing it from there.

     

    -steve

    Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:35 PM
    Moderator
  • Steve, thanks for the response. No luck, I've now tried both options.

     

    When I try to set user permissions, and access the properties of a folder on the LAN-DRIVE I don't get a Sharing Tab, just General & Customize tabs?

     

    I have also mapped the folder to a drive letter in Vista Explorer, and configured OneCare to backup to this, but get exactly the same error message?

     

    Any ideas?

     

    Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:08 PM
  • On General, what is the file system reported?

     

    -steve

     

    Friday, January 18, 2008 2:02 AM
    Moderator
  • Steve, thanks. The general tab doesn't tell me the file system, but I'm assuming it is FAT32. (As this is what it says in the user manual, which can be found here http://www.allcam.org/products/lan-drive-manual.pdf)

     

    More information on the actual drive is here http://www.usbex.com/landrive/

    Friday, January 18, 2008 10:35 AM
  • I am having the exact same problem.  I can backup to the NAS only on the PCs in my OneCare circle running XP but not my hub PC that is running Vista. 

     

    Saturday, January 19, 2008 3:21 AM
  • My problem is also identical to the problems described above!

    Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:37 AM
  • As to "exact same problem" do you both mean that the centralized backup to NAS works for XP, but does not work from a PC running Vista?

    The only requirement for the NAS as a destination is that all users have full rights to the Share. I don't know why the Vista machines can't backup to the Share, which is why this thread remains unanswered.

     

    -steve

     

    Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:57 PM
    Moderator
  • I am having a similar problem. I have been using a network share for back up for several months, now I get a request for a user ID and password. The share is not set up to require a ID or password. I can access the shared folders and files with Windows Explorer and the other folders and files on the server are available with no problems. I am using XP Pro and the NAS is a Buffalo Terastation. As stated earlier, this has been working but now it will not work.

     

    Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:47 PM
  • I found the cure!
    1) Dump Live OneCare & get Norton IS 2008.  Free at Fry's Electronics after rebates if you watch the sale flyers.  That takes care of the A/V and Firewall, and Parental Controls.  Norton IS is an all around MUCH better product.
    2) Buy NovaBackup from (http://www.novastor.com/pcbackup/store/DeptMAIN80.html?sid=NB8015)  I've tried NUMEROUS backup software packages since I purchased my NAS and this is the ONLY one that seems to work and give truly unattended backups, and you can have have the backups encrypted too!

    Sorry, Microsoft...I'm a true fan, but ultimately I have use what works...usually MS, but not this time...One Care falls FAR short of my expectations in this category.  Good luck catching up...

    Mike
    Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:06 AM
  •  brez wrote:
    I am having a similar problem. I have been using a network share for back up for several months, now I get a request for a user ID and password. The share is not set up to require a ID or password. I can access the shared folders and files with Windows Explorer and the other folders and files on the server are available with no problems. I am using XP Pro and the NAS is a Buffalo Terastation. As stated earlier, this has been working but now it will not work.

     

    On the Share permissions, do all users or everyone, have full rights?

    What is the OS of the PC you are unable to backup from?

    -steve

    Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:49 PM
    Moderator
  •  MikeF-Kent wrote:
    I found the cure!
    1) Dump Live OneCare & get Norton IS 2008.  Free at Fry's Electronics after rebates if you watch the sale flyers.  That takes care of the A/V and Firewall, and Parental Controls.  Norton IS is an all around MUCH better product.
    2) Buy NovaBackup from (http://www.novastor.com/pcbackup/store/DeptMAIN80.html?sid=NB8015)  I've tried NUMEROUS backup software packages since I purchased my NAS and this is the ONLY one that seems to work and give truly unattended backups, and you can have have the backups encrypted too!

    Sorry, Microsoft...I'm a true fan, but ultimately I have use what works...usually MS, but not this time...One Care falls FAR short of my expectations in this category.  Good luck catching up...

    Mike

    I'm sorry you gave up on OneCare because of the backup functionality. Personally, I don't use OneCare backup due to its limitations. Well, I do have it running a small weekly backup from my wife's PC to a network Share, but not an NAS.

    Whatever works for you, though, is what matters. Thanks for trying OneCare.

    -steve

    Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:51 PM
    Moderator
  •  Stephen Boots wrote:
     brez wrote:
    I am having a similar problem. I have been using a network share for back up for several months, now I get a request for a user ID and password. The share is not set up to require a ID or password. I can access the shared folders and files with Windows Explorer and the other folders and files on the server are available with no problems. I am using XP Pro and the NAS is a Buffalo Terastation. As stated earlier, this has been working but now it will not work.

     

    On the Share permissions, do all users or everyone, have full rights?

    What is the OS of the PC you are unable to backup from?

    -steve

     

     

    Steve,

     

    I have the access restrictions disabled on the Terastation. When this problem occured I turned on the access restrictioned and gave all users write access, but that did not fix the problem so I turned it off again. Given that I can access the share from Windows explorer (without providing a user name or password) It seems that OneCare is asking for a user name and password even though it is not needed by the terastation. I am using XP Pro on the computer.

     

    Thanks

    Mike

    Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:37 PM
  • I've got a request for beemauk, SWOMO, PoolBall, and Brez.

     

    Please attempt to perform a backup on the machines that are having problems with the NAS once you've configured backup to use the Share.

    When the error happens, close the error and close all OneCare dialogs and program windows.

    See this post for instructions to create a OneCareSupportData.zip file - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2512403&SiteID=2

     

    Send the resulting zip file attached to an email addressed to wloc@live.com and use the Subject Line of "OneCare NAS BackUp Fails"

    In the message body, please paste this link: http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2699080&SiteID=2

     Identify yourself in the email by providing the forum nickname that displays with your forum posts (above).

     

    I'll forward these logs on to the OneCare backup team to look at. Hopefully, we can get to the bottom of this.

    Thanks.

    -steve

     

     

    Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:49 PM
    Moderator
  • Steve, thanks. Have emailed off the information and file.

     

    Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:49 PM
  • Steve,  Thanks, I have also e-mailed my file.

     

    Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:34 AM
  • Received. I should have some information tomorrow to post here.

    -steve

    Monday, January 28, 2008 2:11 AM
    Moderator
  • I thought that I would have some information for you today, but so far nothing new.

    I did receive a reply from the backup Program Manager, but I'm not sure that I understand it, so I'm awaiting clarification.

    If you want to try what was suggested to be the problem, based on the logs provided and reviewed by the backup team, there were two choices offered:

     

    1. Delete the existing OneCare backup from the NAS or Share - folder and all contents - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1698096&SiteID=2

    Then reconfigure the backup and try again.

     

    What concerns me about this option is that in some cases within this thread, the Share and the existing backup location is working fine from other PCs.

     

    2. Reset the permissions or User Control List for the Share. I suspect that this means to go to the permissions for the Share and remove all users and then add the users back in with the rights needed for those users.

     

    -steve

     

    Monday, January 28, 2008 6:09 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks, I will wait to hear back from you.

    Rob

     

    Friday, February 1, 2008 10:18 PM
  • Rob, did you have a chance to try the suggestions in my previous reply? Although I'm not sure I agree with them, I haven't gotten any further clarification as to why they think this will work. What I gather is that it is a stored permissions issue.

    -steve

     

    Saturday, February 2, 2008 3:38 AM
    Moderator
  • Hi,

     

    Having the same trouble here. Just bought a sitecom (based on md-250) nas drive with 400gb. It creates the correct backup directories (for two pc's, PC01 and PC02) but Fails with the same error as in this thread. I also sent the zip file.

     

    Kind regards,

    Alexander

    Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:23 AM
  • PS. Tried the ip adress in the share, it just translates back, tried the hosts file, all did not help.

     

    DO like onecare however

    Saturday, February 2, 2008 11:30 AM
  • Tried the permissions, but it did not fix the problem.

    Rob

    Saturday, February 2, 2008 4:08 PM
  • Misery loves company....I am having the same exact problem with an Iomega 320GB NAS.  Running a brand new computer with a fresh install of OneCare.  Computer is running Vista Ultimate 32bit.  There has to be a solution to this.  Ugh.

     

    Lewis.

    Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:42 PM
  • I have not heard back with any additional things to try. As soon as I hear anything new, we'll get it posted.

    -steve

     

    Monday, February 4, 2008 4:41 PM
    Moderator
  • I composed a reply to this thread earlier, but thanks to forum problems, it was lost to the ether...

     

    I'm getting back to this topic as it remains open and I'm clearing items from my to do list today, finally.

     

    The Backup Program Manager, in reviewing the submitted logs, believes that all reviewed cases are due to permissions problems.

     

    The suggested solution is as follows:

     

    Reset the permissions of the Network Share - that is delete any permissions that already exist and make sure that permissions are set for Full rights for all users. In Vista, this is "Everyone" with full read and write access to the Share.

     

    If this does not work, delete the backups folders within the Share - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1698096&SiteID=2

     

    If this still does not work, delete the Share and create a new Share. I recommend that you create a folder as the Share, and not rely on making the root of the NAS to be your Share.

     

    When you create a new Share, you should reconfigure your backup plan. My recommendation is that you uncheck the options to enable centralized backup and uncheck "Turn on backup for this PC" and save the plan. Go back to the backup settings, and enable backup and configure your Where, What, When options and save again.

     

    If none of these steps work, please contact support and ask for the case to be escalated until you achieve resolution. You may be asked to repeat many of the steps you have already done, but be sure to report what you have done and repeat these steps in an effort to resolve the problem.

     

    -steve

     

    Thursday, February 7, 2008 6:57 PM
    Moderator
  • Bummer. Sounds like a lot of red tape to cut through.

     

    My Vista does (somehow) not recognise my NAS as an external harddisk when connected to the USB port. Will try again tomorrow. So setting security is not an option. Through the web-interface i have already created my 7th new share, removing all possible settings, removing the hub function of my pc etc... and restoring all the settings all over. Just does not work. The NAS operates a WINDOWS N.T. 4.9 OS with a samba server for shares. All of the shares are easily accesible through explorer and i can write, read, change, delete and everything else with no problem at all (even the shares i put a password on). However, OneCare can not even backup to a password-less share i can fully manage through explorer.

     

    Backing up to a mapped drive is no option in OneCare, so it seems like i will just have to buy something new.

     

    Sorry for the negative thoughts, but support will just reel me through the same steps and then say that i will have to check back every two weeks to see if an answer has been found. In the mean time i am without backup, so this is not an option.

     

    I could of course also blame the NAS manuf., but if everything else works, why wouldn't OneCare.

    Thursday, February 7, 2008 10:07 PM
  • Hmmm....

     

    I agree that it sounds like a bunch of red tape. Your NAS has a USB connection option? Interesting. I imagine Vista doesn't see it when connected via USB since the drive is formatted to work with its installed OS...

     

    However, I think that what you are describing that you've done *should* allow it to work. Can you access the NAS via Windows Explorer in Vista and create the Share that way?

     

    And then when pointing to the Share, it would be in the format of \\server\share or \\nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn\share, where you use the IP address instead of the server name.

     

    I'm leaving this thread unanswered, because I still don't feel comfortable with the response I've provided above yours, by the way. So, if yours still doesn't work we can continue to pursue why. It will take time, but we can keep poking at it. Since we have your zip file at the WLOC account, I believe, Alexander, I can ask the PM to review it again.

     

    -steve

    Friday, February 8, 2008 2:23 AM
    Moderator
  • Stephen,

     

    I could not send you the file, since my smtp server identified it as containing a virus form some reason... I you have some place i can upload it to....

     

    I did everything you said except the creation of the share. As i can not access it through USB, shares are created to access the drive through the webinterface of the drive. WHich by the way had disappointingly little configuration options. Just the opportunity to create a share and if you want protect if with a password (tried both ways). However, as stated,. the rest of windows has no problem at all doing everything with the share.

     

    Alexander

    Friday, February 8, 2008 8:09 AM
  • Those steps did absolutely nothing.  I mapped the NAS as a network drive and have no problem reading/writing to it through explorer.  This certainly doesn't sound like a permission issue to me.  What should I do now?  Do you suggest creating a support log file to send?

     

    Lewis.

     

    Friday, February 8, 2008 12:28 PM
  •  lp10splyr wrote:

    Those steps did absolutely nothing.  I mapped the NAS as a network drive and have no problem reading/writing to it through explorer.  This certainly doesn't sound like a permission issue to me.  What should I do now?  Do you suggest creating a support log file to send?

     

    Lewis.

     

    Yes, Lewis, please do per the instructions previously posted to the thread.

    -steve

    Friday, February 8, 2008 7:24 PM
    Moderator
  •  admlange wrote:

    Stephen,

     

    I could not send you the file, since my smtp server identified it as containing a virus form some reason... I you have some place i can upload it to....

     

    I did everything you said except the creation of the share. As i can not access it through USB, shares are created to access the drive through the webinterface of the drive. WHich by the way had disappointingly little configuration options. Just the opportunity to create a share and if you want protect if with a password (tried both ways). However, as stated,. the rest of windows has no problem at all doing everything with the share.

     

    Alexander

    Alexander, hold off with the logs for now. Once I can get back in touch with the backup PM I'll see what other suggestions he may have.

    -steve

    Friday, February 8, 2008 7:25 PM
    Moderator
  • So that's it?  No new news?  Do we just give up and assume we've all wasted our money on this product?

    Thursday, February 14, 2008 4:00 PM
  •  lp10splyr wrote:

    So that's it?  No new news?  Do we just give up and assume we've all wasted our money on this product?

    Don't be giving up yet....

    I've neglected the thread, sorry....

    -steve

    Thursday, February 14, 2008 4:14 PM
    Moderator
  • Any news from the PM on what we should try next?  Its been almost a week with no news at all.

    Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:09 PM
  • I have no news to share, but I'll email the PM again this evening.

     

    -steve

    Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:40 PM
    Moderator
  • I too have the same problem, but on contacting OneCare support was told that OneCare does not support FAT32 drives which is rather odd as it would seem to me that it works on XP (as evidenced by other posts on this thread).

     

    If this is the case then perhaps MS should consider putting that somewhere in the sales information they have for this product or of it is already there then they should make it more prominent. 

     

    This basically makes the backup function of OneCare a nuisance as I have to go about with a couple of DVD's for backups.  On second thoughts I just wont bother using the backups. 

     

    Gary.

    Friday, February 15, 2008 8:49 PM
  •  GaryJS wrote:

    I too have the same problem, but on contacting OneCare support was told that OneCare does not support FAT32 drives which is rather odd as it would seem to me that it works on XP (as evidenced by other posts on this thread).

     

    If this is the case then perhaps MS should consider putting that somewhere in the sales information they have for this product or of it is already there then they should make it more prominent. 

     

    This basically makes the backup function of OneCare a nuisance as I have to go about with a couple of DVD's for backups.  On second thoughts I just wont bother using the backups. 

     

    Gary.

    OneCare supports FAT32 drives, so the information you received from support is incorrect. Your limitation with FAT32 will be the maximum file size that can be written to the drive, but it works fine.

    What is the specific problem you encountered? How are you trying to configure your backup?

    -steve

    Saturday, February 16, 2008 2:24 AM
    Moderator
  •  

    Hi Steve,

     

    the problem is that the backup runs to about 4% then throws an error about that backup location no longer being available.  I also thought about the limitations with file sizes and FAT32 so to rule this out I perfomed only a backup of a few file types (reducing the backup size from about 5Gb to 42Mb).  The issue remained.

     

    There are no issues with permissions as I have full control over the share.  In any case there are no permissions on the share anyway, anyone on the network can currently read and write to it.  Other backup software runs fine using the software so it must be an ssue with OneCare. 

     

    MS support claim Vista, OneCare backup and a FAT32 network share are as uselful as a chocolate teapot so it is surprising to see you saying they are wrong even though you yourself seem to be getting the run around from MS.  Couldn't it perhaps be that the PM just doesn't want to admit to you that there is an issue with OneCare backup on Vista using a FAT32 drive? 

     

    In any case thanks for replying to me and for taking the time to chase this up.

    Regards,

    Gary.

    Saturday, February 16, 2008 4:34 PM
  • Hi, Gary. Sundar is a Program Manager for backup and his post in this thread indicates that FAt32 is supported - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2437231&SiteID=2

     

    Take a look at this thread, http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2331841&SiteID=2, particularly the last post, which is by japreja.

     

    You may also want to try these steps:

    Open OneCare

    Click Change Settings

    backup tab

    Click change settings in the lower left

    Make sure that the first screen for Centralized Backup has "No Centralized backup" selected

    Click your PC on the left.

    Uncheck the selection for "Turn on backup for this PC."

    Click Next and save the revised plan.

     

    Go back to the backup tab and click Change Settings in the lower left once again.

    Select your PC and click.

    Click Turn on backup

    Select the change location link and select the drive you want to use for backup

    Modify the schedule as desired for "When"

    Select the file types as desired for "What"

    Click next and save the revised plan with the new selection.

     

    -steve

     

    Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:28 PM
    Moderator
  •  

    Hi Steve,

     

    I had tried the steps you suggested prior to posting and as for the post you directed me to, he doesn't implicitly say that the program supports FAT32, he only comments that the backup is broken into small sizes.  Also his suggestion is to convert the drive to NTFS which doesn't fill me with confidence.

     

    This continues to appear to be an issue with Vista and OneCare backup using a FAT32 drive.  Or it does to me at least. 

     

    Anyway, MS have closed my support call as unresolved and have stated they wont be looking in to it any further.  For completeness, I've added a portion of the email:

     

    "I would like to inform you that to configure backup on any external device... using Windows Live OneCare, the file format of the device must be NTFS..."

     

    I know FAT32 backup devices are fine on XP but perhaps MS know that there is something up with Vista, especially when as many people on this thread seem to having the same issue. 

     

    Gary.

     

     

    Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:41 PM
  • Hi, Gary. Last week I asked Sundar to look at this thread as there were many unresolved NAS backup issues, so I hope he can step in to advise you what else to try as I am sure that FAT32 is supported. I just couldn't find a better reference that that post, but I know I specifically asked this question within the last few months based on another problem I was reviewing and know that I was told that FAT32 was absolutely supported for backup.

    -steve

     

    Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:55 PM
    Moderator
  • What is also strange is that my backup used to work.  I had it on an XP machine working fine and then one day it suddenly stopped working.  I gave up trying to fix it since I was buying a new computer with Vista on it.  The NAS drive is FAT32 and can't be converted as far as I can tell.  I tried the "CONVERT" command, but I got an error about not being able to convert a network drive.  I'd be more than happy to try it if there is in fact a way to convert the drive to NTFS.

     

    Lewis.

    Monday, February 18, 2008 4:04 PM
  • Hi, Lewis. A NAS device is actually a computer unto itself, typically running an embedded OS, often Linux, so you can't format the NAS device from Windows.

    -steve

    Monday, February 18, 2008 4:28 PM
    Moderator
  • Stephan,

    I'm running Media Center on 2 PCs - one hardwired to my wireless router, the other wireless (obviously), OneCare "Circle", the wired PC as the HUB.

     

    If I connect a NAS drive onto the router to backup both, is OneCare going to manage that or not? Reading the threads in the forum, it sounds like XP systems are ok, only Vista has an issue?

     

    Reading YOUR post about YOUR lack of faith in the product, I'm seriously doubting making the investment ina NAS drive....comments please.

     

    The thought of manually plugging & unplugging an external USB drive is pointless - which is what the marketing of the product seemed to target.....In my opinion, if that's MS's target market for OnceCare, those folks might as well just use DVDs, as they are newbies to the concept of backup if all they're doing is incremental backup to "important" files like photos to a portable USB drive.

     

    Before OneCare, I used Norton remote backup to a 2nd IDE drive in the wired PC to backup my wireless laptop - it worked great! But, alas, the latest version of Onecare refuses to deal with internal drives as legitimate backup devices!

     

    So, Is my investment in a NAS drive going to be accepted by Oncecare?

    Monday, February 18, 2008 8:09 PM
  • Hi Lewis,

     

    You may be able to convert the disk if you can conect it with a USB cable.  The convert command will never work with a network share but I've seen some disks, when connected as a local drive, being able to be converted.  You should be wary though that sometimes the firmware on the NAS device wont be able to deal with this and you'll end up with an expensive USB drive.

     

    In the first instance you should check with the manufacturer as they may have utilites and firmware updates for this purpose.

     

    Regards,

    Gary.

    Monday, February 18, 2008 10:09 PM
  • PScheuer,

     

    The following link should help you with your problems backing up to a local drive:

     

    http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2582583&SiteID=2

     

    If you get this working I'd forget about the NAS, if all you're going to use it for is a backup but then that's just my opinion.  I'm quickly losing faith in the desire of the OneCare team to resolve this as they seem to not be responding to Steve's questions and look to be letting their support personel to just tell people FAT32 devices aren't supported.

     

    Gary.

    Monday, February 18, 2008 10:17 PM
  •  PScheuer wrote:

    Stephan,

    I'm running Media Center on 2 PCs - one hardwired to my wireless router, the other wireless (obviously), OneCare "Circle", the wired PC as the HUB.

     

    If I connect a NAS drive onto the router to backup both, is OneCare going to manage that or not? Reading the threads in the forum, it sounds like XP systems are ok, only Vista has an issue?

     

    Reading YOUR post about YOUR lack of faith in the product, I'm seriously doubting making the investment ina NAS drive....comments please.

     

    The thought of manually plugging & unplugging an external USB drive is pointless - which is what the marketing of the product seemed to target.....In my opinion, if that's MS's target market for OnceCare, those folks might as well just use DVDs, as they are newbies to the concept of backup if all they're doing is incremental backup to "important" files like photos to a portable USB drive.

     

    Before OneCare, I used Norton remote backup to a 2nd IDE drive in the wired PC to backup my wireless laptop - it worked great! But, alas, the latest version of Onecare refuses to deal with internal drives as legitimate backup devices!

     

    So, Is my investment in a NAS drive going to be accepted by Oncecare?

    Hi, Paul.

    Here's my opinion.

    I don't use OneCare backup except for testing and for a small backup of data from my wife's PC since she never exits her email program long enough for me to copy the data. Since she's running OneCare, it was a no-brainer to let it handle the backup to a Share on one of my PCs.

    If you want to pick up an NAS device, see if it includes backup software. You may find that the supplied software will perform more to your satisfaction, given the limitation of OneCare backup.

    That said, I believe that OneCare backup is *great* for anyone who doesn't want to think about backup much and let OneCare take care of it. The original concept was to backup *only* to CD\DVD. With each major release, backup has gotten more complex, offering more destinations, but it is pretty confusing to configure. And, as you can see, there are issues with the way a network Share needs to be configured for backup. I can't tell you that the NAS will work for you, though it *should.* Just like it should for everyone else posting to this thread.

    You may also want to look here - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2582583&SiteID=2

    You *can* configure Centralized backup on a Hub PC to backup to an internal drive that has a Share configured on that internal drive.

    -steve

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:01 AM
    Moderator
  • Stephan,

    Thanks for the honest answers - tough things to say (I know) when you're the product manager. The "share" of my 2nd internal SATA drive (in my desktop, the "hub"), it works fine for backing-up both the desktop and (wirelessly), my laptop.

     

    My suggestion to Microsoft is that they not  "bury" the sharing capability of other drives - Yes, it  does leave users exposed a bit if say, the entire PC catches fire, but hey, I'd bet that all those USB external drives (the OneCare 2.x implies are the only  supported backupo devices) are sitting righht next to a PC that goes-up in flames. Aside from fire, I'd see much that's going to expose that Hard disk used for backup...perhaps a Power supply Glitch could wipe-out a controller.

     

    By the way, I paid < $15 for it, so, at that price, I don't expect much. Had  I renewed the 1.x subscription  at the web price, I'd really be upset due to these shortfalls:

     

    Oncecare 2.x's biggest shortfall in the area of backup is:

    1. Microsoft doesn't explain "other backup device options". I was also a 1.x user and didn't have to make my 2nd interal hard drive a shared / networked drive to use it.

     

    2.Dropping use of the internal DVD: I also (occasionally) backed-up to DVDs - tryuely, the only protection against onsite disasters such as fire, flood, theft, etc.

     

    3.Not explaining the ability to use a NAS: Clearly, the only way to go if you want to remove the dependancy on your "HUB PC" being powered on.

     

    4.No Incremental backup: For a storage guy like me, this is a "meets minimum" requirement to be considered a "real" backup product

     

    5. Giving the impression that the only thing that will work is an external USB drive: Sure, testing & support is more costly,  but skipping the detail instructions / support with regard to using tape drives, NASs, DVD writers, other internal drives leave me with the impression that: a) MS thinks we as users are too stupid to do anything more than plug & pay an external USB drive.  b)MS is too lazy to even write about the possibility of using these other devices (the excersie in franstration, cafine OD and late night cursing is left to the users)

     

     

    Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:07 PM
  • Hi, Paul.

    Thanks for your feedback. I do want to clarify that I and the other moderators here are volunteers and don't work for Microsoft. You might say we're crazy. :-)

     

    I'd like to comment on your points above.

    1. 1.x didn't allow an internal drive to be the destination of backup at all. It just wasn't possible. The ability via the workaround is now to v2.

    2. You can still backup to DVD/CD if you don't have an external storage device or Share. You *can't* backup to CD/DVD if you are using Centralized backup. Skip past the Centralized backup and set it up unique for each PC and you can use CD/DVD as the destination.

    3. Absolutely agreed. It needs to work easier and be explained in more detail.

    4. OneCare performs an incremental backup for every backup following the initial full backup. It does not perform a differential backup. If you reset the backup destination, it will need to do a full backup again.

    Where it fails is that it can *never* append an incremental to a backup set after it has "disconnected" from that set due to a OneCare reinstall, a destination change, or a OneCare reset.

    5. Tape is unsupported. Internal drives are pseudo supported, meaning that this is not a recommended destination. I think that the instructions for how to backup leave a bit to be desired. It *is* confusing. I think I understand most of it now, but I'm here in the forum daily. I think many people are confused by the backup feature.

    -steve

     

    Friday, February 22, 2008 1:53 AM
    Moderator
  • Just another WLOC user with XP machines that work fine but Vista machines which will not backup to the central backup server.   All of our XP machines work as advertised, however only the Vista Ultimate machine will backup to the central backup server (which is a Buffalo TeraStation).   The Vista Home Premium machines also cannot configure their own backup device if they are part of the WLOC Hub.   You can change their backup configuration from the WLOC Hub from the central backup device, but you cannot actually reset the device to anything else.  Even though the button

    which says Choose Device is checked - the Change Location option is greyed out and cannot be selected.

     

    Also, just another note - the backup service is fully accessable from the Vista Home Premium machines - you can read files, write files, create files, delete files, etc... you can even do this from the WLOC backup directory.  But WLOC refuses to actually back anything up to the server.

     

    Any help would be appreciated.   Thanks...  Don

    Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:46 PM
  • I changed my drive to connect via USB instead of ethernet.  I did as described in some of the links on this thread and it appears to be working.  Both computers are running Vista (one Home Premium, one Ultimate 32-bit).  Since the computer it is attached to is always on, it shouldn't be a problem that it is shared through the PC.  Not the ideal setup, but at least it is working.  If it stops working or anything changes, I'll be sure to post more info here.

     

    Lewis.

     

    Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:10 AM
  •  KnightD wrote:
    Just another WLOC user with XP machines that work fine but Vista machines which will not backup to the central backup server.   All of our XP machines work as advertised, however only the Vista Ultimate machine will backup to the central backup server (which is a Buffalo TeraStation).   The Vista Home Premium machines also cannot configure their own backup device if they are part of the WLOC Hub.   You can change their backup configuration from the WLOC Hub from the central backup device, but you cannot actually reset the device to anything else.  Even though the button

    which says Choose Device is checked - the Change Location option is greyed out and cannot be selected.

     

    Also, just another note - the backup service is fully accessable from the Vista Home Premium machines - you can read files, write files, create files, delete files, etc... you can even do this from the WLOC backup directory.  But WLOC refuses to actually back anything up to the server.

     

    Any help would be appreciated.   Thanks...  Don

    Hi, Don.

    I just want to acknowledge your post, but I've got nothing new to add. It appears that I need to each out to the backup team once again as this thread remains unanswered with new problems added.

    I trust that you've read through the rest of the thread.

    -steve

    Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:32 PM
    Moderator
  •  lp10splyr wrote:

    I changed my drive to connect via USB instead of ethernet.  I did as described in some of the links on this thread and it appears to be working.  Both computers are running Vista (one Home Premium, one Ultimate 32-bit).  Since the computer it is attached to is always on, it shouldn't be a problem that it is shared through the PC.  Not the ideal setup, but at least it is working.  If it stops working or anything changes, I'll be sure to post more info here.

     

    Lewis.

     

    I'm glad that this option worked for you, Lewis, although it would have been nice for it to have worked as an NAS.

    -steve

    Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:33 PM
    Moderator
  • Any solution meanwhile?

     

    I'm fighting with the exact same problem - althought for a short while I made it running:

    I enabeled "simple TCP/IP services" in "switching on or off Windows functions" (or however it is called in the English version  under "programms and functions".

    Than I moved an USB-made backup into the shared folder into which OneCare shall save. And OneCare was able to add files automatically. But when I reorganised my computer and deleted all backups to make new ones, the same problem occured and wasn't solvable this time. Even not with the above mentioned trick...

     

    So got anyone a new solution? Or is it just waiting and hoping for an update some time (should there ever be one for this)?
    Friday, April 4, 2008 12:14 PM
  • Sadly, we're still waiting...
    It is interesting that you managed to make it work for a while with your trick before trying to start a new backup set.
    -steve
    Friday, April 4, 2008 4:44 PM
    Moderator
  •  

    Yeah. Maybe someone can make something out of my experience.

     

    Things happened as follows:

     

    1. Connecting the NAS via USB to the laptop (as an external drive).

    2. Making a complete OneCare backup onto this (root directory)

    3. copying the entire backup into the folder which is destinated to be the network-share for automatic backups

    4. connecting the NAS to the network again

    5. switching on the "simple TCP/IP services" in Vista

    6. set the mentioned folder as the centralized backup device for OneCare

    7. further on making only "express backups" with OneCare

    8. Don't delete the backup if you want to renew your structure. Just live with it if it once works... (that was my fault)

     

     

    As I was all the time able to make backups with my XP-computer and with the NAS connected via USB to the Vista-computer I strongly think it must be some service or acces thing of Vista which prevents OneCare from working.
    The OneCare support asked me to switch of the firewall for the update process to ensure that no port used by the backup process is blocked. But that didn't help as well. So it must have something to do Vista And as it worked a while (as mentioned above) it maybe is an issue of a service or protocol used by the network connection.

    Even setting the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel from "3" to "1" didn't help instantly (but I had my system set like that all the time).

     

    Hopefully someone can help out soon... It's a desperate situation I'm in. And: there is a solution possible! It worked for about two weeks, till I was so intelligent to delete it with purpose...


    Friday, April 4, 2008 7:00 PM
  • Regarding this NAS problem I'm in close contact to the OneCare / Windows Support. They now know everything about me and my configuration.

    I received the message they want to rebuild my setup in USA and try to reproduce the failure to help me solve it.

    Additionally I gave a link to this thread and let them know that I'm not the only one experiencing these kind of problems.

     

    The first solution advices arrived and failed with me. But maybe someone else out of this forum can be helped out, so I will post them here. Let me know if you got your system working therewith. Thanks.

     

     

    1.

    De-install OnCare complete, than run the "cleanup" file to get your system completely free of OneCare. The file can be found here:

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/4/c/b/4cb845e7-1076-437b-852a-7842a8ab13c8/OneCareCleanUp.exe

    Run the cleanup-file as an administrator, make the reinstall from www.onecare.com by choosing "run" for the setup file (not "save as..." and run it later from the drive).

     

    2.

    Make sure that the local Vista user has full rights on the NAS, try it with creating a folder or a file on the NAS using the Windows Explorer (to check wheter you have read-write-rights).

     

    3.

    Mount the shared folder of your NAS as a local drive to Vista to ensure a continuos connection to that device. Select that local drive for backups from OneCare.

     

     

    To my experience:

    Step one: no change at all to my problem regarding Vista. But my XP-computer (on which I reinstalled OneCare as well) doesn't want to backup now as well telling me that the share on the NAS is no valid SMB-share and only SMB-shares are possible to be choosen for backup . Complete rubbish as FTP is disabled and all shares of my NAS are SMB ones...

     

    Step two: I can't configure the SMB-rights (beside adding a password to a shared folder (which I didn't). I use the Bootloader 70, Kernel 48 from http://www.lanserver.can-bus.co.uk/ - if someone else has some newer, better files, let me know). All users connected to my local network have full rights on the NAS.

     

    Step three: OneCare isn't dump. It recognised that the drive Z:\ is mounted from //backup/onecare (in my configuration) and changed the backup-storage automatically from Z:\ to //backup/onecare. So there was no change at all.

     

    But as now I get expert help and advice I'm full of hope that I soon will be able to post a final solution right here.

    Any experienced PC-user out there who already knows how to handle the problem PLEASE post it here!

     

    Thursday, April 10, 2008 5:31 AM
  • Thanks for keeping us posted. :-)

    My fingers are crossed.

    -steve

    Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:31 PM
    Moderator
  • Again a possible solution was offered to me which I want to present here:

     

    Open OneCare and enter the extended configuration of the Firewall.

    Choose the register "Ports and Protocols" and add a new one as follows.

    Name up to you

    Choose "other protocolnumber" and enter "6" and for connection the option "both".

     

    (remember that I translated this back from my language into English, so the original names of the registers and options of your system may be different to what I wrote. But I think you can recognize what I ment when you see the form.)

     

    Please post it if this made your system run as it should be.

     

    I personally can't try it as I'm presently underway for some days. But I post wheter it worked at home with me after I got back there.

    Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:54 PM
  • I'm not sure you want to open Port 6 in the firewall. Do let me know how this worked for you and I'll check out if this is in fact a bad thing from a security perspective.

    -steve

     

    Wednesday, April 16, 2008 6:55 PM
    Moderator
  • As I personally am behind a Hardware-Router I don't expect this to be too unsafe for my own system. But of course I don't know how this may affect others who have a direct access to the Internet (e.g. via dial-up modem).

     

    But unfortunately I can't check wheter this works in my home environment as I'm on business affairs and away for two weeks. I surely will post any development regarding this problem.

     

    In the end of April (when I'm back home) - unless the opening of port 6 solved the issue - I'll have a direct chat with a Microsoft official who takes a remote access-look onto my laptop and entire system. Should this lead to a solution I - of course - will post it here again.

     

    I'm full of hope that some day we all get our NAS working with our Vista - even only if this is handeled by a new OneCare or Vista patch...

    Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:26 PM
  • See now, this does sound nice. Hop ethat olur itsy-bitsy issue is enough to give out any of these patches.... Have been waiting for more than 2 months for a solution. I have spoken on more than 4 occasions to a MS specialist. He is also monitoring this forum and also all internal forums on this issue. Nothing so far. But i am keeping up the spirit.

    Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:47 PM
  • just tried the port 6 solution... No fireworks here.... Should have known, i also already tried with the firewall turned off, this also didn't work.

    Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:57 PM
  • I got it working again - with a huge BUT :/

     

    First I thought maybe an upgrade to Vista Ultimate would bring the solution (I had Vista Home Premium, see my configuration in my posts above). But after a complete-reinstall of Vista with the Ultimate version (so not an upgrade as I anyway wanted to restructure my hard drive partitions) I experienced the same problems as mentioned before (OneCare started the backup with creating the necessary folders, but aborded at 2% without copying any files).

     

    So I used the same trick with which I once already got the backup working:

     

    I connected the NAS via USB to my computer, changed the backup destination to it and made a complete backup.

    After this was done, I moved the entire backup into the folder which is used as the share for automatic backups (central backup device).

     

    After I reconnected the NAS to the network (as originally intended) I changed the backup device back to that network storage, choosing the folder within which now the backup made via USB laid in.

    Than I started an express-backup (meanwhile my outlook.pst was changed, so at least there was something present to back it up) and - it worked via the local network. As it should.

     

    Now I have a working NAS for my Vista - untill I change something basically (view my posts about how I once had this working already and "destroyed" it by lack of knowledge what would happen...).

    It isn't the way it should work and a final solution for the problem is still missing, But as an interim this might work for some users here.

     

    Some details how my configuration looks like:

    - enabled simple TCP/IP services

    - enable services for NFS

    - opening port 6 of the OneCare firewall both ways in the local network

     

    I'm not sure, whether these settings are essential for the working, but I won't check it out by disabling it - as I fear the working system might collaps again.

    Sunday, April 27, 2008 3:28 PM
  • Interesting post....We have the same problems and sounds exactly like our problem, it does get to 2% then bang 100% and then error message.

     

    "it wasnt me" thanks for your post, we'll certainly give it a go..

     

    I hope it works....

    Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:21 PM
  • Well, welcome. But we all are still awaiting the final solution for this. I can't be a good clue to reinstall your entire operating system, than connect a NAS via USB to make an initial backup before you can use to program (you paid money for) as it is intended...

     

    Should anyone else discover another or similar solution - let me know.

     

    Additionally I don't know whether the now working backup from my OneCare will work in case I need a recovery (most likely I would have to move the folders back to the root directory of my NAS while attaching it via USB again). So I still use another backup - so to say a backup backup - for the most important files by using a DVD-RW and manual copy onto it.

     

    And what's the use of a backup program (you pay money for) on which you can't relay and you still have to backup in a second way...?! It's not a freeware without support. Such things shouldn't happen - or at least shouldn't take that long to be finally fixed.

    Sunday, April 27, 2008 6:02 PM
  • Today I made an interesting discovery.

     

    As I experienced such problems in making a backup but finally got it working I thought about whether it will ever work in case I'm in need of it.

     

    First I tried to make a newer backup which failed with the well known 2%-problem. So my "solution" was obsolete again. Well. Ok.

    Than I tried a restore. OneCare found the package on the NAS, but when I choose it, I received a failure regarding not available and so on (kind of similar to those when I wanted to create a backup). But during the same time my Windows XP-computer was backing up as well (which of course worked fine... :/ ). This brough a thought to me:

    possibly OneCare under Vista accepts the NAS only if it has very exclusively access and no other connection is open to it?

    When I yesterday had success with a backup to the NAS via LAN I remembered that it took place right after I reconnected the NAS back to the network. So no nameserver or other process was accessing it. OneCare backup could have been the very first programm.

     

    So I disattached the NAS from the network, waited some minutes, reattached it and - the restore-function worked!! I could restore from the backup!

    But when I than tried to make a more current backup I again received the 2%-error...

    Even taking the NAS from the network for some (well, only few) minutes brough no success. But maybe I had bad luck because the connections weren't all closed yet.

     

    Possibly some more experienced person than me can test a bit more and better with this hint? Of course I gave it to Microsoft as well (as I still am in contact to the support regarding this entire thing). But maybe someone of you knows Vista that well, that we can find out how to handle faster? Would be fine...

    Monday, April 28, 2008 1:35 PM
  • Thanks for continuing to work with support and to document your experiences here as you try to get this working consistently for you. I remain hopeful that the backup team manages to improve this part of the program to work much more readily and seamlessly.

    -steve

     

    Monday, April 28, 2008 2:55 PM
    Moderator
  • I am a bit peeved, I post a workaround with a bit of cash in the newsgroups a few days back explaining that I got a new NAS backup from NETGEAR the SC101 (not the T version) and got OneCare to Successfully backup but I didnt try it with Vista only XP.

     

    XP works flawlessly with this device but Vista a little bit different and get to 16% then straight to 100%

     

    "Backup cannot continue please make sure the device is available and you have read and write permissions."

     

    On the share I specified everyone full control

     

     

    anyone got any solutions as yet?     The netgear drive setups a local drive and I use the sticky on the onecare backup front page and goto network -> then PC -> sharename "backup"

     

    I will not stop till I find a solution, it hasnt beaten me yet!

    Thursday, May 8, 2008 12:27 PM
  • Hi, Simon.
    Did you install the Netgear software on the Vista machine so that it becomes an internal drive to the Vista machine? Which PC is hosting the Shared "internal" drive? The XP machine or the Vista machine?
    -steve
    Thursday, May 8, 2008 1:42 PM
    Moderator
  •  Stephen Boots wrote:
    Hi, Simon.
    Did you install the Netgear software on the Vista machine so that it becomes an internal drive to the Vista machine? Which PC is hosting the Shared "internal" drive? The XP machine or the Vista machine?
    -steve

     

    Yes, The Netgear software is installed and has become an internal drive using virtual scsi miniport driver - they call this Z-SAN Driver.

     

    In this case each PC needs the software and the shares & permissions to be setup on both PC's as they work independent of each other not like on a real server. The NAS Device is networked.

     

    Windows Explorer picks the drives up fine. Windows XP is fine with the drive and backups successfully but Vista does not as my post above states.

     

     

     

     

     

    Thursday, May 8, 2008 6:13 PM
  • I understand the basics of how the unit works, though I have no personal experience with it, but my question might be better phrased as follows:

    Are you using Centralized Backup and one of the PCs is "hosting" the backup plan, or are both PC backup plans defined independently as writing to a Share?

    My thinking is if the XP machine is the hub for Centralized backup and it backs up fine to the Share *and* permissions for the Share are configured for all users to have full access, then pointing the backup to the same Share for the Vista machine to the Share might work differently than if each PC has an independent plan and points to the same Share.

    Another possibility would be map a network drive on the XP machine to the location, share it via Windows Explorer and set up the Centralized backup to use that Share for all PCs in the Circle.

    Maybe I'm grasping at straws as the issue with NAS devices for OneCare backup, especially from Vista, is making me nuts ;-) and I don't even use a NAS for backup!

    -steve

     

    Thursday, May 8, 2008 6:41 PM
    Moderator
  •  

    This very evening I have an Easy Assist Session with a Microsoft official and hopefully I can post a solution thereafter - or at least the information they are working on it...
    Friday, May 9, 2008 3:52 AM
  •  

    Same problem here with fresh installed Vista ultimate 64bit (german language) and NAS maxtor shared storage 300GB.

    I can access the NAS shares (Linux SMB shares, i guess) via explorer just fine. I'm able to create files / directories and delete such. Sound like full access to me.

     

    When i configure backup in onecare it already creates a subfolder named "Windows OneCare Backup" with a file named "DO_NOT_DELETE.mediaID" in it. So also onecare seems to have access to it.

     

    Later when i manually start onecare backup it gathers information from local system and stops with complaint that it is not able to access network share with "unknown errors".

     

    I doubt that this is a firewall problem since windows explorer can access the share ... Any debug log to look for?

     

    Is it a bug in onecare? If so, should i provide this support file to help analyzing the bug?

     

    Regards, Martin.

     

    Friday, May 9, 2008 8:53 PM
  • Hello, Martin. Since you have found this thread, you can see that there are many people having the same issues with backup to a NAS device from OneCare. You are welcome to contact support for further help and they can gather support logs. I would suggest requesting escalation fairly quickly if the front line tech doesn't resolve it for you.

    -steve

     

    Saturday, May 10, 2008 12:45 AM
    Moderator
  • So. I had a (two hours!) Easy Assist session yesterday.

     

    The problem isn't solved. But conclusion was that it's an issue of permissions.

     

    Vista has a different way to access the network than XP has. Not only the user, but as well the system needs full rights on the NAS. As on my NAS I can't set any rights every user accessing my home network has full rights on every share on the NAS. But obviously the Vista system itself hasn't. The technician read and checked out the error messages produced by OneCare when aborting the backup and came to that conclusion.

    Pitty, but there is presently no way to fix that in Vista.

     

    Maybe the NAS doesn't really grant full rights but some sort of limited ones. As there is no way to change that this will be a really hard point to solve... No registry, secpol or other changes can resolve that at the moment.

     

    Next week I will have a second Easy Assist session, this time together with the backup developers themself.

     

    So personally I believe that there is a long way to go and it's not even sure whether this will come to a happy end at all.

    Presently it's looking more the way that the developpers of the lanserver firmware or SMB have to make changes - meaning it's a thing outside of the range and responsibility of Microsoft. Question only is if Microsoft (again?) has established an own way and own policies for networking with Vista (making Microsoft responsible to take care it works) or whether the firmware (NAS-BASIC 48 commonly) doesn't comply to most recent rules and policies. Some times it's a Microsoft habbit to "abuse" international standards (like with the IE as well) and wait for the other parts of the world to comply with it.

     

    I'm looking forward for the next session but my hopes a few that there will be a quick solution. I fear that at a certain point - when Microsoft comes to the conclusion that more or less the entire network environment has to be changed - they will refuse to be responsible and blame the NAS-producers. These ones have already sold their products to us and won't take that much care about the customers. In this case we have to wait till an experienced person by himself changes the firmeware on personal purpose and use this inofficial software than. Abandoning all guarantee-rights towards the NAS-manufacturers. If ever there will be such a solution even.

     

    Vicious circle.

     

    To put some more pressure on Microsoft I strongly recommend EVERYONE who experiences this NAS-problem to contact support and ask for escalation. Maybe this will be the only way to get a Microsoft-based solution to this and see our bought NAS working as they should be.

    Saturday, May 10, 2008 4:48 AM
  • I now filed my case to support and we will see what they say :-)

     

    @It wasn't me

    Sounds really strange to me, i don't understand how another user or Vista System or something should be involved when you exactly specify the User-Account to access the share in OneCare.

     

    Martin.

    Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:59 PM
  • Hello,

     

    well, surely it's something strange. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a problem. But the technician translated the error code for me and they clearly and without any doubt tell us that it's a permission issue and that the "system" hasn't the rights it needs to have.

     

    So it's really more a general thing of Vista versus SMB. There must be a huge difference between the access by a user (e.g. via Windows Explorer) or the system (e.g. by a backup).

    As I know from other forums exactly the same problem occurs with the Windows Media Player:

    If you as a user click on some music files on the NAS they are played without problems. Automated access via a playlist isn't working.

    Same problem here: the user himself has the rights he needs, but as soon as the system automatically seeks access that is denied...

    Saturday, May 10, 2008 4:43 PM
  • Mhh ... i totally agree with you that System trying to access the share and a user trying to access a share is something completely different. However since i specified the user account to use for share access in onecare, vista should use exactly this one user account and nothing else.

    And the user account i specified in onecare is the same i use to connect via explorer, both access methods should be the same and either both working or both not working.

     

    So i'm afraid vista does something wrong and tries to access the share without login or something else, but does NOT use the account we specify in onecare?

     

    If i can find the time and if MS support doesn't solve this too soon, i might try with a packet sniffer to see whats going on on the line when onecare tries to access my NAS box. Maybe this could help to clarify the problem.

     

    So long,

     

    Martin

     

    Saturday, May 10, 2008 8:08 PM
  • As far as I understood the problem it's like follows:

    The user accesses the NAS with the name he was given by Vista. So if you log into Vista as user "Peter" and you have the possibility to create acounts on the NAS you need to make one for "Peter" with full rights.

    But additionaly Vista itself tries to access the NAS as system. I can't say which account Vista is using (I can't imagine it's just an account called "system" or so, 'cos that wouldn't work with more than one Vista system in the network). So there's the problem than. Obviously this is a new "feature" of Vista compared with XP and causing the problem. That is explaining why OneCare AND Media Player (described above) experience this issue. Surely there must be way more programs with that problem, but they are not complaining in this forum.

     

    Now the question is whether it's Microsofts turn to solve that problem as they might have established some new standards or the turn of the SMB-developers to comply with that new situation...

     

     

    It's a long time I used to work with Linux and Samba and so on. But as far as I remember the user rights are coded in four digits from 0 to 7.

    As behind that a binare mode is used, the digits have the following meaning:

    0 meaning no rights at all (binary 000)

    4 read only (binary 100)

    5 read and execute (binary 101)

    6 read and write (binary 110)

    7 read, write and execute (binary 111)

     

    Usually only three digits are used to show and change that. so a code of 754 in an environment a user Peter is working in would mean:

    7 = the file owner's (Peter's) rights are read, write and execute (full rights)

    5 = the user group (group in whitch Peter is in) members rights are read and execute

    4 = everyone else (neither Peter itself or in his user group) has read only access.

     

    And exactly that is what - if you have the possibility to change user rights in the UI of the NAS - you are changing. These rights. So far no problem, as if you set 777, everyone would have full rights, even a person working anonymous on the NAS. And this is the setting which is set by a NAS if the UI doesn't give the possibililty to change permissions in SMB. So far that sounds ok, as the "system" if connected as a certain kind of user, would have full rights as well.

     

    But as mentioned there are four digits to represent the permission group. As mostly only the last three (as described above) are changed, only those three are shown. But behind the interface Samba handles a permission like the sample above not as 754, but as 0754.

    As far as I know the first digit represents the "system" or something similar (automated access for example). But I'm not sure about that. But as in an normal NAS environment this digits has no need to be changed and "0" is standard for it, we can't change it. Maybe Vista now need this to be set to something else.

    I'm not that experienced in Samba any more as I could try to write a new fireware by myself or judge whether this is a possible solution to the problem at all (maybe all my thoughs about this are wrong).

     

    But this would perfectly explain the problems occuring with OneCare and Media Player. A possible solution would be to write a new firmeware for the NAS. The disadvantages of e.g. a 7777 setting of a NAS in a home or business network environment are not known to me so I can't tell whether there is a chance that ever someone will release a firmeware according to these points. But this again would lead the responsibilty from Microsoft to the manufacturers of the NAS (firmware)...

    Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:36 AM
  • Technically this might be right, but the root cause of the problem seems to be vista accessing the share as SYSTEM and not as the user we specify in onecare setup!?

     

    Besides i just installed onecare on my laptop under windows XP and experience just exactly the same problem :-(

     

    So, at least for me, it's not a pure Vista+NAS problem but rather a OneCare+NAS problem :-)

     

    Regards, Martin.

     

    Monday, May 12, 2008 8:38 PM
  • The following link might shed some light on the core issues for those of you that can understand it. I wonder if Vista Service Pack 1 has improved on the general issues, have any of you installed this yet?

     

    Vista: Can’t access NAS,MAC, Linux, Samba and Win98
    http://www.chicagotech.net/netforums/viewtopic.php?t=460

     

    MaHoff is probably correct that to some extent OneCare may have to write around the issue, not because it's the best method, but primarily because its intended user base isn't capable of understanding these types of technical issues.

     

    OneCareBear

    Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:55 AM
    Moderator
  • I've got Vista SP 1 installed. So no fireworks as the problem still is current...

     

    Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:08 AM
  • @ MaHoff,

    quite similar to you I've got an additional Laptop running XP (used by my wife) beside mine running Vista.

     

    And I as well experienced that somehow Vista confuses the NAS and/or XP as well. For a while the XP computer didn't want to back up onto the NAS, telling me it's not available and so on. But the huge difference as I went further on in my investigations is that, if you change the settings from "centralized backup device" (or however it is called in the English language) to individual settings and than try to choose the NAS - either from the main computer for the XP machine or (after allowing this) directly from the XP computer - it wouldn't accept this device, not even recognising it correctly.

    I re-installed OneCare on the XP-machine (additionally using the Microsoft tool to remove all OneCare data from it).

    I don't remember exactly but I think this didn't bring the solution. The solution to this was when I changed something on the Vista machine OR to the backup itself (meaning I deleted the backup on the NAS, maybe even the entire backup share) and than made everything new.

     

    Funny anecdote from this: the laptop of my wife once had the network name "laptop" (when it was my laptop and we only had two desktop computers additionally). I never had the need for reinstalling XP as everything is working fine. I just renamed it to the name of my wife (as my own laptop is called by my name - all for better overview in the home network).

    OneCare usually creates backups called by the name of the computer. But when being totally confused like described above, OneCare on my wife's laptop created a new backup called "laptop". The renaming took place around one year from then. Funny but showing how confused OneCare was...

     

    So this is not really a OneCare vs. NAS issue but a Vista thingy - I believe. But sometimes and somehow it's affecting even other PCs (running XP) in the network. Something really strange. A big mess so to say which Microsoft created there with the  - beside this thing (I presonally must say so) really sophisticated and well done - Vista.

    Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:26 AM
  • The problem still isn't solved but I want to give you a situation update.

     

    Obviously it's not a OneCare issue but a Vista vs. NAS thing. The Microsoft technicians are having an idea:

     

    Quote from the last E-Mail of the technicians to me:

    ...

    Anyways, the logs say Network Access Denied. I have a small hunch about the problem. Looks like the LanServer does not support nested directory creation.

    ...

     

    Meanwhile I hardly believe in a solution for this at any time anymore. It's so fundamental. So beside the fact that I really really like OneCare as it's a perfect program (working fast, not slowing down the computer, offering all the functions you need and before it you had to buy or load several other programs from different manufacturers etc. pp. I simply love it!) I'm thinking about abandoning and change to another program. Hard to say, but what's the use of a software I pay for if it doesn't work as it's intended...

     

    So for those who're using Vista and intend or are forced to backup to a NAS - leave OneCare and take a different solution - at least for the time. I hope there are many people (personal and commercial) to do so as to force Microsoft to do something about this (but I hardly can imagine that...).

     

    (and forgive my bad English...)

    Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:17 AM
  • I will soon be upgrading to a Vista machine and will presumably be faced with this problem.  What are the other comparable solutions that one could switch to?  One good feature of OneCare is that it backs up a wide range of file types.  Some of the NAS backup programs I have looked at will back up only a small range of file types.  Also are there any other products that combine backup with the virus checking facilities of OneCare?

     

    (Your English is fine!)

    Saturday, June 21, 2008 7:05 AM
  • Yesterday I got a phone call from Mircrosoft...

     

    "It's impossible to backup onto a NAS using OneCare unter Vista."

     

    The case is closed now.

     

     

    The technicians tried it for days and weeks but there's no way. Possibly some day a patch will change the situation but there's no timetable for it. Especially as many users are facing this problem (because backing up onto a NAS is a common, cheap and very senseful solution if there exists a private network at home) there is a good chance that some day this will be fixed (but it's not promised of course). Untill than I shall backup by connecting the NAS via USB.

     

    I'm very very unsatisfied with that answer but there's few I can do but complaining. 'Cos OneCare itself is a realy sophisticated program I like much.

     

    @gadgarra

    Well, other backup solutions I can imagine are:

    - CDs or DvDs, preferable RAM (only if the drive is attached to the computer that needs to be backup up itself)

    - external drives via USB or FireWire

    - external drives connected to another computers in the local network

    - Windows 2003 server and network environments

    Saturday, June 21, 2008 7:43 AM
  • This is ridiculous!!!!!!

     

    I have found out after many months of playing with everything that it boils down to the device that you buy!

     

    There is cheap and nasty devices on the market from all different manufacturers.

     

    What you really need is to put lots of cash in your hand and go buy some decent kit.

     

    I have successfully got Onecare to backup over the network and works as expected but be prepared to shell out for it.

     

    NETGEAR PROSafe ROUTER http://www.netgear.com/Products/VPNandSSL/WirelessVPNFirewallRouters/DGFV338.aspx about £200 ~ $400?

    NETGEAR NASDUO http://www.netgear.com/Products/Storage/ReadyNASDuo/RND2150.aspx about £250 ~ $450?

     

    They are very nice devices indeed!!

     

    Yes you will say why do you have to spend that much on devices for such a thing.

     

    Works very well with OneCare Backup and you get lots of features with the devices.

     

     

    Hope this helps.

     

    P.s running the network with Vista and XP so both work in tandem and laptop is XP too and using the centralized backup if you got any questions message me.

    Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:14 PM
  • All any of you had to do was ready my post from several months ago:

    I found the cure!
    1) Dump Live OneCare & get Norton IS 2008.  Free at Fry's Electronics after rebates if you watch the sale fliers.  That takes care of the A/V and Firewall, and Parental Controls.  Norton IS is an all around MUCH better product.
    2) Buy NovaBackup from (http://www.novastor.com/  I've tried NUMEROUS backup software packages since I purchased my NAS and this is the ONLY one that seems to work and give truly unattended backups, and you can have have the backups encrypted too!

    Sorry, Microsoft...I'm a true fan, but ultimately I have use what works...usually MS, but not this time...One Care falls FAR short of my expectations in this category.  Good luck catching up...

    ----
    As a post script, I've now been using Nova Backup since January and it flat-out works!  I've never recommended software on a forum, don't own stock in Nova (don't even know if their publicly traded...may I should check), but I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending their product.  The reason it works with Vista is that you give it log on credentials for an admin account and it can log on and run without you needing to be there.

    Generally, I think MS products are top notch, and OneCare is a great idea...but it's not ready for prime time.  It simply is not competitive with other anti-virus/firewall and backup systems.  It tries to be a jack of all trades, but in the end, it is a master of none.

    Mike

    Saturday, June 21, 2008 5:53 PM
  • I have had bad experience with Nortons Products, I have had numerous computers given to me to fix and its had Nortons on everytime, something wrong there, Blue Screens most of the time, makes your computer slow down and adds loads of gumfph on your PC. That is my experience anyhow.

     

    Not tried Nova Backup

     

    Mike what NAS Device do you use? 

    Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:00 PM
  • Forgive me for asking what is probably an elementary question, but if you connected the NAS by USB to one of the computers in the network instead of to the router, could you then backup to this external drive from the other computers in the network?

     

    If so, this would sem to be a reasonable solution, apart from the fact that the computer to which the NAS was connected would need to be switched on when the other computers were running a backup.

     

    Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:42 PM
  • Given that Symantec dominates the consumer anti-virus sector, with over 64% market share, more than 3x as much as McAfee, its nearest competitor, no one should be surprised that you find NAV common to the troubled computers you've seen.  That said, yes, it does add a lot of overhead, and it is not trouble-free.  However, I've tried McAfee several times over the years (even recently) and always find myself going back to NAV.  For me, it has better configuration controls than McAfee, but both are, in my opinion, good products and which one a person should use depends on what feature set is important to them.

    I have two PC's and my Buffalo Link Station Pro 320 connected to a 16 port switch.  I have a 4-port router connecting my cable modem to my switch, with everything running at 100MB over CAT5 wire.  I use NovaSor to backup both my PC's.
    I'm not enthralled with the Buffalo, but it works.  Tech Support is as bad as I've read on the web, but at the time, it was the only reasonable priced NAS on the market.  MY problem with the Buffalo was that one day Vista couldn't see it on the network anymore.  I waited on hold over two hours...was sent a refurbished replacement which I could see on the network, but appeared to have a non-functioning fan.  I called tech support and complained about the fan and they said that the fan was temperature controlled and that all my original device probably needed was to have the ROM flashed to restore it to the network.  Sure enough, that did the trick. Been trouble-free ever since.  It would have beenn nice if the first tech support guy could have provided that info in the first place..without the two hour wait.

    Take care- Mike

    Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:27 PM
  • Hi Mike

     

    It is probably why yes, so where has the other 46% of the market share gone too? obviously this is for Home Users and is pushed alot into retail shops. I dont see any other product in retail shops on sale. Saying that Kaspersky seem to be coming up as a real competitor.

     

    So at which point did you use Onecare? before all your problems with the device? or after? and how long did you use OneCare for?

     

    Thanks

     

     

     

       

     

     

     

     

    Monday, June 23, 2008 7:46 PM
  • I know that I requested and received some logs to share with the Backup team back in January at the beginning of this thread...

     

    The OneCare team has requested new information on this problem from those who are having issues backing up to a NAS device. They may contact you to set up a chat or Live Meeting to review your system configuration further.

     

    Please create a Support Log zip file.

    See this post for instructions to create a OneCareSupportData.zip file - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2512403&SiteID=2

     

    Send the resulting zip file attached to an email addressed to wloc@live.com and use the Subject Line of "OneCare NAS BackUp Fails"

    In the message body, please paste this link: http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2699080&SiteID=2

    Identify yourself in the email by providing the forum nickname that displays with your forum posts (above).

     

    Also include specifics of your setup and what you are experiencing from each machine in the Circle. Please include the Network Attached Storage (NAS) Manufacturer/Model Number/Size/Connection type and anything else about the device that you can provide.

     

     

    Note that I set this email address up for use by the OneCare team as needed. If you contact this address on another issue, or the investigation period for this issue has ended, you will probably only see an auto-response from the address.

     

    My fingers are crossed that we can finally get to the bottom of this and get a resolution.

     

    -steve

     

    Thursday, July 3, 2008 1:31 PM
    Moderator
  • Not really.  If Norton has "64% market share, more than 3x as much as McAfee", it means McAfee has around 20%, so the rest of the market combined (which includes a whole lot more than Kaspersky) comprises 16%.

    I purchased OneCare when I purchased the Buffalo NAS.  Prior to that, I had a 40GB tape backup on one computer, and not backup on the other.  They say there are two kinds of people: Those who back-up, and those who wish they had.  It only took once (many years ago) to make a believer out of me.

    Mike
    Saturday, July 5, 2008 2:01 PM
  • I want to assist with this, but have a question in relation to Stephen Boots' post 2 before this.

     

    I have a NAS connected by USB to Computer A on my network.  OneCare backup works OK from this computer, but will not work from Computer B or C on the LAN, both of which show "Access denied" when trying to map the NAS.  All 3 are running Vista.

     

    Do I create the Support Log file on Computer A or Computer B/C?

     

    Thanks

     

     

     

    Monday, July 14, 2008 6:28 AM
  •  gadgarra wrote:

    I want to assist with this, but have a question in relation to Stephen Boots' post 2 before this.

     

    I have a NAS connected by USB to Computer A on my network.  OneCare backup works OK from this computer, but will not work from Computer B or C on the LAN, both of which show "Access denied" when trying to map the NAS.  All 3 are running Vista.

     

    Do I create the Support Log file on Computer A or Computer B/C?

     

    Thanks

     

     

     

    If your backup drive is connected via USB, it is not a Network Attached Storage device, but a simple USB external drive, even if that drive can also be configured to connect via a LAN connection (not connected directly to a PC) and be a NAS device.

    If you are using Centralized Backup and cannot backup from computer B/C, then the Share on that drive has not been configured with the correct permissions for the network Share.

    From Instant Help:

    Set user permissions for a centralized backup device

    Before you can use an external hard disk or network share as a central backup device for all computers in your OneCare circle, you must make sure that all users on the network have the correct permissions to access it.

    By default, Windows XP uses simple file sharing. If the external hard drive is connected to a computer that's running Windows XP Home Edition, all users on the network automatically have permission to access the device and the backup files. However, if the external hard drive is connected to a computer that's running Windows XP Professional Edition or Windows Vista, simple file sharing is turned off when you create a backup plan that uses a centralized backup device.

    If you are using a network share as a backup device, you must grant permission for users to access the network share. When you grant permission, all users will have access to the backup files.

    To set user permissions for a centralized backup device:
    1. On the network share or external hard disk, navigate to (but do not open) the shared folder or drive that you want to set permissions for.
    2. Right-click the backup folder or drive, and then click Properties.
    3. In Windows XP Home Edition, on the Sharing tab, click Share this folder, and then click Permissions.

      –or–

      In Windows XP Professional Edition or Windows Vista, on the Sharing tab, click Advanced Sharing. Click Share this folder, and then click Permissions.

    4. Under Group or user names, make sure that Everyone is selected.
    5. Under Permissions for Everyone, in the Allow column, select the Full Control check box.
    Monday, July 14, 2008 7:18 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks, I thought I had done this, but it appears that you actually have to add "Everyone" under the Group or Users tab by typing it in , and then select Full Control.

     

    Everything now OK!

     

    Monday, July 14, 2008 8:40 PM
  •  gadgarra wrote:

    Thanks, I thought I had done this, but it appears that you actually have to add "Everyone" under the Group or Users tab by typing it in , and then select Full Control.

     

    Everything now OK!

     

    Most excellent! I wish it were so simple for the NAS issues that this thread represents...

    -steve

    Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:24 AM
    Moderator
  • For everyone or anyone still following this thread, or discovering it for the first time, I updated my post from July 3rd to request information about the NAS device in use when submitting logs for review. Please do send this information, including the support log from at least the Hub machine in your Circle, as the OneCare team is looking for as much information as possible to investigate the problem. I know that it has been a long time in coming, but there is a renewed focus on this with some new resources available.

    Thanks,

    steve

    Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:35 AM
    Moderator
  • Sorry Steve. I thank you very much for continuing the work at this project. But atm I don't have the passion to collect all my data again and start a new session of hope and an answer-question-game at which's end most likely nothing will be changed at all.

    And Microsoft has all data regarding my system on hand. So there's no use in sending it to them again. But I will keep a watch on this thread. Maybe during the next few years, with OneCare 3.0 or for some extra cash, there will be the possibility to back up onto a NAS... Maybe... Or with the succeeding OS after Vista ran out...

    Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:29 PM
  • No need to apologize - you've already invested a whole lot of time in this. I am hopeful that Microsoft is able to resolve this issue by testing the devices mentioned here and in other threads with backup.

    -steve

     

    Monday, July 21, 2008 4:22 PM
    Moderator
  • I'm surprised that NTBACKUP has not been mentioned.

    I've also struggled with NAS devices with OC. 

    Turn OC-backup OFF.  Configure ntbackup with taskman and viola:  unattended backups WITHOUT an admin being logged in.

    Disclaimer:  I don't have Vista, so I can't speak for it. 
    Sunday, July 27, 2008 3:57 AM
  • I didn't understand exactly what an NAS was when I began looking for a solution to my own problem.  My External Drive is connected via USB to my Vista Hub PC.  My laptop runs XP Home Premium.  I succeeded once in having it back up.  On my second attempt, however, I rec'd the following message after the 2% mark:  "Backup cannot continue because the backup location is not available. Make sure the device is connected and you have read/write permissions for the backup folders on the device".

    Prior to that attempt, I had set permissions and sharing for the OneCare Backup folder on the root of my external E: drive.  I had also done the same for the Computer Name, as well as the "2008" Folder plus the "File" Folder beneath that.

    But I didn't achieve success until I set the permissions and sharing for the drive itself.

    FWIW!

    Thanks to Steve and all of you previous posters for lessons learned.

    R. L.
    Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:48 AM
  • I need help on this issue too. Vista is asking for a name and password where as XP just for a password. On supplying the password XP lets me access the DIR/Folder. Vista comes back with an error (no username)

     

    I'll have a look around to see if I can find help elsewhere. Note the NAS in question is a remote box not a pc sharing a drive.

     

    XOL

     

    ps this is my first ever waffle so be kind

    Wednesday, October 1, 2008 12:11 PM
  •  X0L wrote:

    I need help on this issue too. Vista is asking for a name and password where as XP just for a password. On supplying the password XP lets me access the DIR/Folder. Vista comes back with an error (no username)

     

    I'll have a look around to see if I can find help elsewhere. Note the NAS in question is a remote box not a pc sharing a drive.

     

    XOL

     

    ps this is my first ever waffle so be kind

     

    Just for reference, a NAS is always a box on the network - Network Attached Storage. It isn't a Share on a drive inside or attached to a PC, though a PC can be configured to serve as a NAS.

     

    The OneCare team is interested in working through these NAS problems, so please read the following, which is a re-post of a prior request.

    The OneCare team has requested new information on this problem from those who are having issues backing up to a NAS device. They may contact you to set up a chat or Live Meeting to review your system configuration further.

     

    Please create a Support Log zip file.

    See this post for instructions to create a OneCareSupportData.zip file - http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2512403&SiteID=2

     

    Send the resulting zip file attached to an email addressed to wloc@live.com and use the Subject Line of "OneCare NAS BackUp Fails"

    In the message body, please paste this link: http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2699080&SiteID=2

    Identify yourself in the email by providing the forum nickname that displays with your forum posts (above).

     

    Also include specifics of your setup and what you are experiencing from each machine in the Circle. Please include the Network Attached Storage (NAS) Manufacturer/Model Number/Size/Connection type and anything else about the device that you can provide.

     

     

    Note that I set this email address up for use by the OneCare team as needed. If you contact this address on another issue, or the investigation period for this issue has ended, you will probably only see an auto-response from the address.

     

    My fingers are crossed that we can finally get to the bottom of this and get a resolution.

     

    If you could be so kind as to do the above, we may get more traction on this ongoing issue.

     

    -steve

    Wednesday, October 1, 2008 1:53 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks Steve for the prompt reply,

     

    I also didnt realise I came into a big discussion at the very end. I did a search and i only see the last page.

     

    I did get the NAS working eventually but the vista explorer became 'flakey' and closed on me. I'll have a few more bashes at it and see it i can get a stable connection.

     

    Thanks again.

     

    X0L

     

    Wednesday, October 1, 2008 3:58 PM