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The incorrect appearance of duplicate posts and what happens if you try to remove the duplicates RRS feed

  • Question

  • I have seen examples where there is a question followed by the same post twice.

    As neither of them have a delete button, I have been forced to first unmark on of the posts (i.e. remove the fact that it has been answered) and then click delete.

    This then in fact deletes both of the posts !

    The reason is that the first of the two duplicates is in the "Answers" section and the second is in the "Replies" section.

    (see this for instance http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/sharepointcustomization/thread/c96dc510-04fe-4fd1-943b-f735ad8bc260)

    They are both in fact the same post but the overwhelmingly clear apparent fact is that the same post has been posted twice and a Moderator's duty in that case is to delete one of the duplicates. Which I do.

    The bug is that in order to not have the same post listed twice (which wastes everybody's scrolling time as well as confusing Moderators) the forum software should when a post is marked as an Answer both transfer it to the "Answers" section AND should also REMOVE it from the "Replies" section.

    I'm sorry but this "improvement" has not been thought through to the end. It is at the moment a complete mess. Not only is in impossible to see who marked a post as an answer (see earlier thread here) but it is very difficult to determine when duplicates are not duplicates.

    Please re-think; re-code; and remove this monstrosity.



    WSS FAQ sites: WSS 2.0: http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007: http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com
    Total list of WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007 Books (including foreign language titles) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/Lists/v3%20WSS%20FAQ/V%20Books.aspx
    Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:30 PM

Answers

  • This is by design. In reality, when you have a longer thread, it is extremely helpful to leave the answer in palce as well so that you can see where it falls in the conversation.
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:41 PM
  • Mike,

    You can turn this mode off in preferences, it's the "Show answers first" setting. We figured that is probably the view moderators would want and so we made it an option.

    The default setting is to show the answers first. The line of thinking for this feature is <most> users enter via a search result directly to a thread. So if we show the question, immediately followed by the answer(s) they'd need go no further. For those the want to follow the full conversation they can. If we were to remove the message from the conversation, in flat view it'd be ok but maybe difficult to follow, in threaded view what would we do? Insert a placeholder?

    Thanks for the feeback. We'll definitely want to improve the usability of this feature as we think it's a good one for the typical user scenario.
    Rob J, Forums Dev
    http://twitter.com/robjoh
    Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:19 PM
  • >in threaded view what would we do? Insert a placeholder?

    Yes, I see the problem - first few lines from the original post followed by a line saying "to see the rest of the text of this post, see the Answers section" as a solution? That would avoid the problem of "duplicates" and would also minimise the problem in the thread I quoted of long posts taking up far too much space when answered.


    Another question. What happens at the moment if a post has been marked as an answer and is then unmarked? Does it just vanish from the Answer section?


    Note: Apart from in very long, old threads I doubt if having an answer section is useful for moderators. At least my style is to spend most of my moderating time on newer posts where it's more hinderance than help. I can see me switching it on and then having a session where I check only the answered posts, but hardly as my default.

    My basic feeling is that as a User default it's probably correct but as a Moderators default not. But a Moderator presumably knows how to change the defaults. I just hoped the default doesn't have to be changed for every forum separately ...

    P.S. Logical if you have a Answered section would be to also have a Proposed section first. As another option it would be useful when doing a session where a Moderator wants to check all the Proposed posts with a view to upping them.

    WSS FAQ sites: WSS 2.0: http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007: http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com
    Total list of WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007 Books (including foreign language titles) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/Lists/v3%20WSS%20FAQ/V%20Books.aspx

    I think what Rob was sayign was that we expect the "Answrs first" to be a helpful default for most users (who are just searching for an answer to their problem)... Moderators might want to turn this off, and you're right, likely have enugh knowledge to do so. When you turn it off for "My Settings" if affects all forums on all the brands runnign on this platform, so you wouldn't even have to change for both MSDN and Technet, for instance.

    HTH
    Matt
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:08 AM

All replies

  • This is by design. In reality, when you have a longer thread, it is extremely helpful to leave the answer in palce as well so that you can see where it falls in the conversation.
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:41 PM
  • In a longer thread it may be.

    In the thread I quoted it's an abomination.

    I would still hope for a re-think of the design. This isn't good.

    Note: Consider the typical number of replies in a thread. I suspect we're talking (in the SharePoint forums which is where I "work") something like 2 or 3 replies. Having one of those repeated (especially a long one like the example I quoted) is painful.

    Even in a long thread what is the point of repeating the answer ? (Answering his own question / repeating your reason: because of the replies to it being isolated - but if there are replies, was it truly an answer?)

    WSS FAQ sites: WSS 2.0: http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007: http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com
    Total list of WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007 Books (including foreign language titles) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/Lists/v3%20WSS%20FAQ/V%20Books.aspx
    Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:56 PM
  • Mike,

    You can turn this mode off in preferences, it's the "Show answers first" setting. We figured that is probably the view moderators would want and so we made it an option.

    The default setting is to show the answers first. The line of thinking for this feature is <most> users enter via a search result directly to a thread. So if we show the question, immediately followed by the answer(s) they'd need go no further. For those the want to follow the full conversation they can. If we were to remove the message from the conversation, in flat view it'd be ok but maybe difficult to follow, in threaded view what would we do? Insert a placeholder?

    Thanks for the feeback. We'll definitely want to improve the usability of this feature as we think it's a good one for the typical user scenario.
    Rob J, Forums Dev
    http://twitter.com/robjoh
    Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:19 PM
  • >in threaded view what would we do? Insert a placeholder?

    Yes, I see the problem - first few lines from the original post followed by a line saying "to see the rest of the text of this post, see the Answers section" as a solution? That would avoid the problem of "duplicates" and would also minimise the problem in the thread I quoted of long posts taking up far too much space when answered.


    Another question. What happens at the moment if a post has been marked as an answer and is then unmarked? Does it just vanish from the Answer section?


    Note: Apart from in very long, old threads I doubt if having an answer section is useful for moderators. At least my style is to spend most of my moderating time on newer posts where it's more hinderance than help. I can see me switching it on and then having a session where I check only the answered posts, but hardly as my default.

    My basic feeling is that as a User default it's probably correct but as a Moderators default not. But a Moderator presumably knows how to change the defaults. I just hoped the default doesn't have to be changed for every forum separately ...

    P.S. Logical if you have a Answered section would be to also have a Proposed section first. As another option it would be useful when doing a session where a Moderator wants to check all the Proposed posts with a view to upping them.

    WSS FAQ sites: WSS 2.0: http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007: http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com
    Total list of WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007 Books (including foreign language titles) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/Lists/v3%20WSS%20FAQ/V%20Books.aspx
    Sunday, March 29, 2009 6:36 AM
  • >in threaded view what would we do? Insert a placeholder?

    Yes, I see the problem - first few lines from the original post followed by a line saying "to see the rest of the text of this post, see the Answers section" as a solution? That would avoid the problem of "duplicates" and would also minimise the problem in the thread I quoted of long posts taking up far too much space when answered.


    Another question. What happens at the moment if a post has been marked as an answer and is then unmarked? Does it just vanish from the Answer section?


    Note: Apart from in very long, old threads I doubt if having an answer section is useful for moderators. At least my style is to spend most of my moderating time on newer posts where it's more hinderance than help. I can see me switching it on and then having a session where I check only the answered posts, but hardly as my default.

    My basic feeling is that as a User default it's probably correct but as a Moderators default not. But a Moderator presumably knows how to change the defaults. I just hoped the default doesn't have to be changed for every forum separately ...

    P.S. Logical if you have a Answered section would be to also have a Proposed section first. As another option it would be useful when doing a session where a Moderator wants to check all the Proposed posts with a view to upping them.

    WSS FAQ sites: WSS 2.0: http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007: http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com
    Total list of WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007 Books (including foreign language titles) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/Lists/v3%20WSS%20FAQ/V%20Books.aspx

    I think what Rob was sayign was that we expect the "Answrs first" to be a helpful default for most users (who are just searching for an answer to their problem)... Moderators might want to turn this off, and you're right, likely have enugh knowledge to do so. When you turn it off for "My Settings" if affects all forums on all the brands runnign on this platform, so you wouldn't even have to change for both MSDN and Technet, for instance.

    HTH
    Matt
    Matt Fraser, STO Forums Software Developer
    Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:08 AM
  • >When you turn it off for "My Settings" if affects all forums on all the brands runnign on this platform, so you wouldn't even have to change for both MSDN and >Technet, for instance.

    That's good. The MSDN and TechNet thing is a bonus.

    (A bonus that reminds me of another problem with the new form of the list that a Moderator gets when moving a thread. The one I posted earlier in the Suggestions forum - perhaps incorrectly as it and a couple of other posts there from me with suggestions are still free of responses - was that it is incorrect that the box, with available forums to move to, lists all forums from the start which is only good for people who move to forums at the top; I almost always move to forums in the same SharePoint group and so want the same list as before centered on the FROM forum. This new one is that the forums are now listed in a grouped scheme rather than straight aplhabetically. This meant finding Off-Topic required to realise this was in User Groups but worse are things like Team Management Software which you have to remember are in a Visual Studio group. Can you consider simply going back to the old system where I would really, really welcome that it listed both MSDN and TechNet forums because changing from TechNet to MSDN just to move a thread is a pain.)

    WSS FAQ sites: WSS 2.0: http://wssv2faq.mindsharp.com WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007: http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com
    Total list of WSS 3.0 and MOSS 2007 Books (including foreign language titles) http://wssv3faq.mindsharp.com/Lists/v3%20WSS%20FAQ/V%20Books.aspx
    Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:21 AM