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Synchronization problems (Migrated from community.research.microsoft.com) RRS feed

  • Question

  • Domino posted on 01-09-2009 7:07 AM

    Hello everybody! I just tried Songsmith for the first time and it seems to be a great tool. I'm having a weird problem though. When singing to the drum beat, the recording is getting more and more behind the beat. What I mean is that when I play back, the voice starts a bit early. Then over the course of the song, this grows more and more extreme. It's not a latency issue, but more like the whole voice recording was sped up. I use an Alesis io2 and have no problems of this kind in other programs (Cubase for example).

    I can actually see it happening while recording. The new bar pops up on the first beat of the new measure, but the red wave still appears in the bar before. Does anyone have any idea what the problem might be?

     

    EDIT:

    I just tried using a cheap computer microphone plugged directly into the microphone input of my onboard soundcard, and the problem is gone. So it might have something to do with my USB audio device (which is unfortunate, since I would of course like to use an actual microphone).

     

    EDIT 2:

     And I just solved the problem. I basically had to turn of the hardware accelaration (Control panel -> Sounds and Audio Devices -> Audio -> Sound Playback Advanced). It works like a now. Unfortunately the audio quality is degraded quite a bit and the count in doesn't start on the first beat anymore? Sorry I have no idea what the actual issue is.

     

    EDIT 3:

    Actually it works fine with hardware acceleration if I just wait out about 12 bars before starting to sing. Somehow when from that point on recording and music are in sync. I have no idea why it isn't from the start.

    EDIT 4:

    This approach has stopped working now as well. I really have not the slightest idea what's going on. Sorry that this post got so bloated.

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:26 PM

Answers

  • dmorris replied on 01-15-2009 1:24 AM

    Following up w/Jay offline to see if we can get to the bottom of this.  Will post back to this thread if we can solve this issue...

    Sorry you're having this problem, Jay, we want to get you up and Songsmith'ing!

     -Dan

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM

All replies

  • Ink replied on 01-11-2009 12:52 AM

    open up songsmith go to options hit microphone
    configuration mess around with the recording latency
    until you are happy with the timing.
    good luck

    -Ink

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:26 PM
  • Domino replied on 01-11-2009 5:42 AM

    Hi. Thanks for your answer, but as I said in my first post it is NOT a latency issue. The problem is not that the whole recording is just a few ms behind. Instead it seems that while the Backing track is playing at, let's say 120 bpm, the voice is recorded as if it was at 100 bpm. So in the first bar, the recording is 50ms behind, in the seconds bar it's 100ms behind, then 200ms, then 400ms etc...

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:26 PM
  • dmorris replied on 01-12-2009 4:45 PM

    Really sorry Songsmith isn't working properly for you.

    I'm going to follow up with domino offline... domino, expect an e-mail from me shortly.

    -Dan

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:26 PM
  • maraz replied on 01-12-2009 7:14 PM

    I am having similar problems.  Also, the +-125ms adjustment seems inaquate, since even at +125ms audio is still behind right from the start. I find this most peculiar, since in most audio applications I can get the recording latency down to 6-8ms using ASIO4ALL and to about 20-30ms using DirectSound.

    Also, I find not being able to manually adjust the placement of the recorded material (perhaps even slicing it to fix offbeat syllables) quite a bit too dumbed-down. Now just add better-sounding instruments, perhaps pitch correction, automatic voice equalization, compression and mastering, and you're pretty close to having a one-click music machine.

    Right now the software seems a bit too musically oriented while lacking in all the really necessary voice recording/editing features. 

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:26 PM
  • Jay Bennett replied on 01-13-2009 10:03 AM

    The 125 ms provided to compensate for latency IS NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH FOR ME....My vocals (or I have done tests, where I just count along with the beats as my vocal performance) are behind a complete measure-ish, depending on the tempo, of course.  There has also been some discussion as to whether this issue of latency is compounded by an issue of vocals progressively falling farther behind as song goes on...I'm so far behind to begin with (even when using all of the 125ms compensation provided) that I can't even really say for certain if I'm falling progessively farther behind, but I suspect that I am. I have NO IDEA how the guy in the demo was able to make this work. I agree it's got some potential (if you're open minded, and not too much of a snob to use any tool as a tool in your song writing arsenal), but this problem makes it unusable. Also, I agree the lack of ability to "manually adjust the placement of the recorded material" just makes it seem as if it is changing the phrasing. If you haven't already checked it out, check out the David Lee Roth isolated vocals from "Runnin' with the Devil" run through Somgsmith, it completely changes the phrasing...vocal lines don't begin on the correct beat. This could be cool, but there are bugs, BIG BUGS. BIG BIG BUGS

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Jay Bennett replied on 01-13-2009 10:13 AM

    Instead it seems that while the Backing track is playing at, let's say 120 bpm, the voice is recorded as if it was at 100 bpm---EXACTLY, thats what it feels like....I've now actually tested this, by recording a vocal performance where I just count the beats, and then on play back listen to how that matches up to the drum machine backing. If it were JUST a latency issue, my counting of the beats, and the drum machine backing would be off, but at the same tempo, and have some kind of consistent syncopation...right? BUT alas, no kind of syncopation however weird is ever achieved.

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Odieman replied on 01-13-2009 10:22 AM

    What kind of sound card do you have?

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Jay Bennett replied on 01-14-2009 9:25 AM

    Just generic one that came with Dell PC....it works just fine with other aplications...If you think about it, this thing is kind of a fun "toy" that possibly could be used as a tool by "real"/"professional" musicians...and at $30, that's all cool....but if you have to go out and get a hot-rod sound card, well then it loses it's "hell, it's only $30, maybe it will help me in some sillly way, or maybe my daughter will have fun with it" value.

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Odieman replied on 01-14-2009 11:42 AM

     

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Jay Bennett replied on 01-14-2009 11:58 AM

    recording the Alesis----confusion,... did I mention anything about an ALESIS?....although my symptoms do match the problems you get with sample rate conflicts.....wouldn't the vocal also play back at the wrong pitch?

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • dmorris replied on 01-14-2009 12:31 PM

    No special sound card is needed to run Songsmith... a standard built-in sound card, USB headset, etc. will work fine.

    The most likely cause of the problem being presented here is the use of two different sound cards for playback and recording, operating at different sample rates.  Is this a possibility?  If so, can you try using a single sound card for input and output?

    In general, Songsmith works fine with two different sound cards in this way, but perhaps something about one of your sound cards isn't allowing the sample rate to change properly. Perhaps you have a professional sound card whose drivers only allow ASIO applications to change the sample rate?  The Alesis devices that someone mentioned are a great example; I have an Alesis device myself and it can be configured such that only ASIO applications can change the sample rate, which would make "regular" audio applications very confused.

    Does that sound like a possibility for any of the posters on this thread?

    -Dan

     

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Jay Bennett replied on 01-14-2009 2:02 PM

    No special sound card is needed to run Songsmith... a standard built-in sound card---all good here, nothing at all special about my sound card

    The most likely cause of the problem being presented here is the use of two different sound cards for playback and recording---Physically it appears that I am using the same sound card for record and playback. The mono mini jack input, is directly next to the stereo mini jack output, so they must be on the same card....right?...maybe not, I guess... But, again this would explain the problem PERFECTLY.

    Perhaps you have a professional sound card---NO, this PC is as stock as it could be.

    Thanks everyone, this is all helping a lot....especially this last post from Dan,....I guess I will have to se if I am in fact using two different sound cards for record and playback, however unlikely it seems.

    This does seem to be a sample rate issue...at that does narrow things down quite a bit

    -Jay

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • dmorris replied on 01-15-2009 1:24 AM

    Following up w/Jay offline to see if we can get to the bottom of this.  Will post back to this thread if we can solve this issue...

    Sorry you're having this problem, Jay, we want to get you up and Songsmith'ing!

     -Dan

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM
  • Domino replied on 01-15-2009 11:41 AM

    Thanks for your replies. I am currently out of town and thus can't try out your ideas right now, but I will do so next week. It might indeed have something to do with the sample rate (because I think was a slight pitch change on the vocals), although I'm pretty sure I used the Alesis for both input and output. Well, I'll look into it when I'm back. Thanks again!

    Thursday, June 2, 2011 8:27 PM