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Backing up to internal drives??? RRS feed

  • Question

  • Does the new version allow backing up to drives that appear as internal to windows?

    There has been so many requests for this feature, it would seem like MS were not listening to their customer feedback if this was not to be included.

    Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:11 AM

Answers

  • As of yet, this feature is unavailable in the beta.
    Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:37 AM
    Moderator

All replies

  • As of yet, this feature is unavailable in the beta.
    Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:37 AM
    Moderator
  • This implies that it may available in the full release???
    Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:39 AM
  • We don't know that. We only know the same things about the program that you see and are learning with you.

    -steve

    Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:46 AM
    Moderator
  • I second the request for backing up to internal drives.  I just want to backup to another drive on my computer.  Is there something flawed with that logic?  Seems simple enough to put into the program
    Friday, July 13, 2007 2:40 AM
  • I totally agree. This feature seems like a no brainer.

     

    Why not just allow us to choose a drive no matter where or what. Just put in a drop down like all other programs that list all drives recognized by the computer and NAS.

     

    If people choose the same drive to backup to, that's their fault.

    Friday, July 13, 2007 5:00 PM
  • Actually now you can do backto to internal!

     

    But indirect way...

     

    create a share on internal drive.

     

    Use it for centralized network backup destination (note: not the normal network backup) (eg.. .\\this_machine_name\share )

     

    It will work!

     

    kudos...

     

     

    Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:41 AM
  • Yea but that's lame to have to do it that way.
    Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:57 PM
  • I cant believe they're even thinking about not implementing backups to internal drives! There was a huge amount of requests for it last time around—what does it take to get MS to listen to us!?
    Wednesday, July 18, 2007 8:14 AM
  • I use removable SATA drive bays for backup and cannot currently use OneCare's backup feature. If the next release doesn't address this I'll be switching back to Norton/Symantec.
    Don't forget ESATA which is gaining in popularity. ESATA devices will show up as "internal" devices and therefore will not be supported by OneCare. You don't want the newest Maxtor backup appliance to be unusable by Microsoft's greatest new backup application?!
    If you feel you must provide this level of "hand holding" for us unedu-ma-cated users then just make the limit that you cannot back up data to the same volume it is on (if(source==dest){ warnuser();}) . While this doesn't assure relocation security of backup media it does at least insulate users from single drive failure.
    Wednesday, July 18, 2007 2:32 PM
  • I totally agree with this. I just bought a 160GB Cavalry Hard Drive specifically for backups. If I set it up eSata, OneCare would not allow me to back up my data. I had to use USB to get it to work. Please make this change.
    Thursday, July 19, 2007 4:58 AM
  • What I can't understand is how those who keep asking for this can't get the point, it's just plain a bad idea to backup within the same system, for many reasons primarily related to hardware failure and based on well known industry best practices. This has been the statement in Help since well before OneCare 1.0 was ever released:

     

    Windows Live OneCare doesn't support files that have been backed up to a partition on an internal hard disk. You may not be able to recover your data from the partitions on the hard disk, including any backup files.

    Windows Live OneCare supports the following devices for backing up your files:

      kumaaragiritirumaladevaraya has shown you a simple workaround that should be obvious to anyone with a technical background. The fact that this isn't displayed anywhere within OneCare or its help system is another indication that its use isn't suggested, but it does make it possible. The mere fact that a few want to see a feature does not make it a requirement that it be implemented, especially when it's not a good idea in the first place.

       

      If OneCare provided an image backup of entire drives such an option might make more sense, but since it's intended to only backup data this generally implies much smaller capacities and less need for high data bandwidth. This may not be true for all users, but then the Network Location becomes a natural workaround, whether to remote targets as intended or local drives. This avoids the need to warn unskilled users since they're not likely to figure this out.

       

      In case you weren't aware, literally hundreds posted to a single thread discussing adding a 'Registry Cleaner' to OneCare and that still hasn't occured, though a 'Startup Cleaner' has. This is another example where some level of support has been provided, but the actual request itself hasn't, again because it's a potentially dangerous functionality.

       

      OneCareBear

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:29 AM
      Moderator
    • It's pretty simple OneCareBear. The cheapest, per megabyte, backup solution is removable, again REMOVABLE, sata drive bays which I use. I rotate the bays out and take last week's harddrive to work. It's very easy to just provide "advanced" dialog that exposes a "backup anywhere" feature with a "warning; you may be making a huge huge misstake" disclaimer. That said, the "workaround" is fine for me (where do I get the beta; I'm not using it yet) however the problem is bigger then just the teeny tine few of us using drive bays:

      ESATA. If you don't know what ESATA is then it's very important you look at devices like this -> http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-ST3500601XS-RK-500GB-eSATA-External/dp/B000FOL7Q2

      These will start becoming the predominant backup media for newer machines which OneCare currently does not support. This is a big issue for the OneCare product. Not supporting ESATA will mean risking partnerships with PC manufacturers that want to ship ESATA back up solutions as a bundle. Currently they would be forced to choose another vendor as OneCare's "work around," while adequate for people like me, is unacceptable for PC vendors.

      To reiterate, OneCare does not support ESATA because, to the bios, ESATA devices are just another SATA drive. The "E" part is purely a function of where they put the SATA port (on the back of the PC case). And on an even more geeky note; technically speaking all SATA devices are removable devices. The SATA specification allows for hotplugging if the chipset supports it. Currently the Windows platform team has not worked with the motherboard manufacturers to expose an "is removable" attribute for SATA devices attached to the system. In the end this is the ultimate solution.

      Solutions:

      1) contact Windows Core team and have them work with the SATA maintainers (http://www.sata-io.org/), the PC industry, and Intel (motherboard chipset work will need to be done) to update all new and recent PC's to allow windows XP sp2 and Vista to differentiate between hotpluggable SATA devices and "fixed" SATA devices.

      2) Add the feature we are requesting in this thread as an "advanced: danger will robinson" feature.

      Obviously 2) is a tad easier to get done.

      PostScript: Because ESATA will be used by OneCare's "mom and pop" users you'll probably want to do more then just the "advanced: danger will robinson" feature. You'll want to have (it's not great I know but unless option 1 above is complete it's the only way) the ability to select an ESATA device and ask the user "is this an external device? If not you probably don't want to use it. If so check here and we'll not bug you again". A bit of brainstorming, storyboarding, and information architecture and I'm sure OneCare can make the ESATA support easy if a little more difficult then the current storage location logic flow.

      cheers,
      -scott a dixon
      Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:57 PM
    • I understand backing up internally is not necessarily 'best practices', but since most of us are using this for personal use anyway, I dont think that really matters. And really, what makes it such a bad idea? My main concern is not viruses or fires or anything like that but drive failure, in which case having my important data backed up onto another internal drive is more than adequate. It may not be the best solution, but for the majority of us its a perfectly good one.

      The real point here is it is unnecessary to limit backup locations, I should be able to backup to wherever I choose, regardless of what M$ think!
      Saturday, July 21, 2007 5:13 PM
    • Hi Scott,

       

      I'm glad you took the time to discuss all of the issues with eSATA, since I did this myself in the past and it's a lot of work. I originally mis-understood the specification as a truly removable option within the operating system and as you've indicated this really isn't true currently. Though the hardware itself can support hot-pluggability in most cases, the operating system is totally oblivious to this fact since all drives are treated as internal by both the OS and currently existing Host Bus Adapters.

       

      What's not clear here is that it's the hardware vendors who've created an inadequate specification, not Microsoft. Simply from your description it's easy to see why the Windows Development Group wouldn't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. They'd simply be asking for support problems since the specification wasn't created with software detection in mind, so most hardware will never be compliant. This isn't something that Microsoft can 'fix' in software, as you've hinted, so it's really up to hardware vendors to re-define a better eSATA specification.

       

      At this point I can't see supporting these drives directly with OneCare, since they inherently have all the same issues as any internally connnected drive, whether designed to be physically removable or not. The provided workaround is the only reasonable alternative to make it clear that this is an unsupported, but workable solution for those who wish to take the obvious data corruption risks involved with removing disks that the OS doesn't recognize as removable. OneCare can't 'fix' this issue since it's at the OS and driver level.

       

      I'm not convinced that the average home user will want to purchase one of these drives anyway, since I see more value for most in the online backup option being added in the WLOC 2.0 beta. Though I think that limiting this to pictures will have to change, I also don't believe that most larger file formats like commercial music or video have any place in online backup today. I'm just concerned about things like financial or other important documents with as much true value as personal pictures.

       

      The online backup service makes complete sense paired with a OneCare subscription, especially for those who see no need to 'own' the media where the backup is stored, which tends to be a 'techie' preference. The protection provided by a remote storage service which potentially includes it's own redundancy and backup is really better than most individuals could ever provide for themselves anyway.

       

      OneCareBear

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 5:28 PM
      Moderator
    • Mooner,

       

      With the workaround mentioned above, you can backup wherever you'd like, it just implies the appropriate idea that you are performing an unsupported operation.

       

      Though you don't claim to be concerned about other risks, what will happen when they occur? If the data involved really isn't that important then why are you bothering to back it up in the first place? If it is important, then why would you want to limit the level of protection by making an obviously bad technical decision?

       

      OneCare was created to bring many of the computer best practices that are used by successful organizations like Microsoft and others to the home user. As such it has a duty to attempt to provide the best ideas and remove as many risks as reasonably possible. This is what limiting the ability to make risky decisions like backing up within the same system are really about.

       

      In my past I've seen many disasters, both personal and public, that have displayed this issue quite clearly. Microsoft Support has also seen large numbers of lost data situations with their customers and is simply trying to help their OneCare customers avoid the most common pitfalls. This specific issue may or may not happen to you personally, but it will to someone, so making a risky choice for no real good reason makes no sense whatsoever.

       

      OneCareBear

       

      < EDIT > I should indicate that you've highly limited the reasons that internal backup is not advised. As a partial list they include; Fire, Flood, Earthquake (head crashes), Lightning and other electrical power spikes, Theft, Accidents (dropping or falling) and any other natural or manmade disaster I've missed.

       

          All of these happen every day to someone, you just never hear about most since they're somewhere else and it doesn't affect you. I know someone personally who's been affected by all but an earthquake, but I live in the central US, though I do recall a story about much data lost in San Jose about 20 years ago when a small earthquake crashed thousands of drive heads.

       

          If you're going to bother to back up your data, why not assume the worst and do your best to protect from as many risks as possible? The additional effort is generally minimal and will still provide for the more common issues like drive failure, usually for minimal additional cost, especially when automation is provided.

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 5:49 PM
      Moderator
    • OneCareBear, you honestly think it's that hard to add internal drives to the selection of where to back up to? The location selection is already there and thus it is nothing to add the ability to choose one more location (internal drives). It took more effort in your long post to try and explain to us why it's not a good idea, than it would be in time and code to implement it. It's not like it's adding an entire backup feature to the OneCare product. You act like it would be a sin to add one location to the already existing choice of locations.

       

      We have already pointed out the reasons why this simple addition would be important and useful. You do know that you can have more than one physical internal drive right? It's already been pointed out that eSATA shows up as internal also. Saying that people would not be able to retrieve their data if it was backed up on an internal drive is not accurate.

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:06 PM
    • It is important to backup. A lot of people just have their backup drives inside the computer as an additional internal drive, instead of outside. You can have more than one internal drive and eSATA, as pointed out, shows up that way. Why is it such a sin for them to add something so simple in code to something that's already there?

       

      Are you saying that the practice of having an additional drive inside the machine as an internal drive to backup to, is not legit? It's no different than an external drive, other than the obvious extra cost and location.

       

      I'm sorry but that roundabout way of doing it is lame, when all they have to do is make a minor addition to the already existing ability to select locations.

       

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:19 PM
    • Scortch,

       

      You're totally missing the point. The purpose behind using an external drive is to allow it to be removed from the computer when not in use, which obviously lazy people will not do. However, this was the original intention when removable drives were added, though I'd have disagreed for this reason if I'd been involved at that time.

       

      Regardless, at least an external drive is easily removed in an emergency (e.g. flood or storm on its way), so it has the potential of allowing you to escape with your important data if your life isn't in imminent risk. Most won't grab the computer in the rush to escape a hurricane, but an external drive or CDs would make sense, you can always replace the computer itself.

       

      Get it through your head that they won't be adding this 'feature' since it's a horrible idea. It would have been easier to code it with this allowed in the first place, so it was obviously done specifically because it should be avoided. The fact that 'lots of people' do this doesn't make it right, it just proves that most don't understand the potential risks. That you don't care to do it the right way doesn't require Microsoft to add risk for everyone else.

       

      OneCareBear

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:40 PM
      Moderator
    • Only you think it's a horrible idea. So you saying they won't be adding it because you think it's a bad idea, when there are a lot more customers that are asking for it and think it is a good idea? So you telling us they are going to listen to just one person saying it's a bad idea? That wouldbe a bad thing for ANY company, to listen to one person.

       

      They created external backup drives for another reason too. So people could add additional storage and backup without having ot know how to open up a system to install another drive.

       

      That's why they have so many people in beta testing, to show them the error of their ways.

       

      Well, I'm glad Symantec and McAfee has this feature. I'm glad they did not listen to just one person that seems to be saying that what he says, goes. I always thought MVP meant moderator, not developer.

      Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:47 PM
    • I may be going out on a limb here but I'd bet large sums of money that for every harddrive lost to flood, fire, or "act of god" there are probably hundreds of thousands lost to simple hardware failure. Statistically speaking backing up to a separate but internal hard drive is a very useful practice if it is not an optimal practice.
      The best way to design this would be to educate the user as they select a backup location. Have some nice graphics (with fires, plagues, and apocalyptic floods with little stick figures running for their lives, EUSB drives in tow ;-) that inform the user about the benefits of each backup location selection:

      "OneCare: I see you're selecting the same volume to backup your data to as the volume the data is already located on. This is stupid and means you are a moron."

      "OneCare: I see you're selecting an internal volume to backup your data to. While this provides a backup should your primary harddrive fail it does not protect you from fires, floods, or the second coming of Jesus Christ."

      "OneCare: Now that you have selected an external source don't forget to take this source with you if you leave on vacation or the house is burning down (don't forget your children in such an event as well). By the way, would you like to learn more about backup media rotation practices used by fortune 500 companies to protect their mission critical data?[click here]"

      -scott a dixon

      (how do I get invited to the onecare beta?)
      Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:55 PM
    • Exactly Scott. The majority of the reasons people need backups is because of HD failure. It's only a MINOR amount of people that will need it for other reasons.
      Saturday, July 21, 2007 7:04 PM
    • Scott,

       

      Though I don't have these statistics myself, I'd agree that the numbers will be smaller, but still quite significant. Situations like Hurricane Katrina, earthquakes and other disasters have obviously created large numbers of losses, but I doubt anyone has tried to determine the loss of data vs just the computers left behind. The fact that the media have picked up on this in such recent disasters implies that it is becoming significant however.

       

      I understand what you mean about presenting the options, but unfortunately it's quite clear that most today don't bother to read even the shortest dialog. For this reason, I'd agree with you if the target audience were Network Administrators, since it's their job to read or understand such things, but the target for OneCare is the non-technical user who won't or can't.

       

      For this reason, I personally agree with the policy that Microsoft has stated within the OneCare Instant Help since before WLOC 1.0 as follows:

       

      Windows Live OneCare doesn't support files that have been backed up to a partition on an internal hard disk. You may not be able to recover your data from the partitions on the hard disk, including any backup files.

       

      Note that this statement is NOT mine, I simply agree with it completely since it's based on industry Best Practices that have existed for decades and don't need to be understood by a user to be followed. OneCare provides many of these Best Practices within the product, they're simply less evident since they don't have the visual selection that the backup location does.

       

      Also note that I have agreed in the past that a workaround was needed for those who wished to ignore this for whatever reason, which if the sharing of a local drive as a Network Location allows, seems reasonably acceptable to me. I haven't tested this myself, but then I don't wish to use it in the first place. As a technical solution it seems quite simple and straightforward for anyone who could understand how to install an internal drive in the first place, so I don't see what the big deal is.

       

      The mistake that some are making is to believe that 'voting' will guide OneCare as a product. Granted, there are situations where this is true, but the simple fact that some people want a feature does not mean it will happen. If this were true, then a bunch of malware creators could simply generate a large number of 'votes' to have their definition removed from detection, or even the entire AV turned off by default. Obviously these are extreme examples, but the concept is the same, in some cases Microsoft must make difficult decisions to retain the best foolproof protection for the largest number of users.

       

      From my own history of watching and using several different products, this is the failure I've seen occur consistently. The addition of too many confusing features that eventually make the product difficult for even a knowledgable person to manage, let alone a novice non-techie. This foolproof, simple management of personal computer security was top on the list of the original statement of requirements that OneCare must maintain, coming from Bill Gates and others at the top levels of Microsoft. The OneCare Team is simply following through with this edict as they were hired to do.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 23, 2007 3:42 PM
      Moderator
    •  OneCareBear wrote:

      Scortch,

       

      You're totally missing the point. ..................

      etc etc ...............

       

      OneCareBear

       

       

      You know OneCareBear, this is the kind of answers that makes me not even read your "lessons" anymore.

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:03 PM
    • Agree one hundred percent. As a once computer beginner, even I knew that backing up to the same drive is dumb and useless in case of drive fault. In fact from personal and business experience being in the repair of PC's for both home and business users.

      In fact to consider it bad form to not back up to a second separately installed hard drive is ridiculous since unless a lightening strick and I mean a direct one there is no way for all drives and hard ware to fail even in a pc that has a blown power supply. It is a complete and useless solution to have a good product not use something so common. I mean to tell us as customers and technicians that we recommend windows one care then buy a 39 to 69 dollar external case then run the cables around... sheesh do you see what anyone is saying. I have never ever had a failure of a backup from the separate drive! I have 100 percent of the time had the software fail when trying to restore a failed drive. For example Norton's Ghost and Acronis which since the inception of windows one care I have moved to because of the ease of use and reliabilaty.

      Please no long posts about industry garbage and blamming other hardware manufacturers. In fact this is all too common. The ISP's don't blame thier techs for not being able to clean out the virus that infects thier network and blames MS because you did not do something right and you guys blamming the manufacturers. I take it that in fact you are cattering to novice user so no one has to think. This is fine but allow advanced users the freedom to choose, after all it is the American way. I too use hot swappable drives to backup.

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:05 PM
    • Does it mean Steven that the "Team" does not even tell to you what they are exactly doing or going to do in a next future.

       

      What is it exactly that keeps you going as a moderator who can't give an answer to whatever question raised ?

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:08 PM
    • Missing the point is an understatement and in fact the response resembles some bot running a script. *LOL*

      Heck I came here because I tried making an internal "seperarte" decicated to nothting but backups shared drive and posted that in some place else and some one put a link to this thread here on how to do it exactly and well the only thing I see is a long winded debate and a closed minded coorporation that words are useless on. No wonder I have only linux servers and are building more and more linux workstations and home user machines. In fact these lame users are not as lame as MS thinks right now I get more calls on linux than windows.

      Well that is my three cents and a question of where is this "how to share and internal drive for backup with windows live one care".

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:11 PM
    •  MS-adict wrote:
       OneCareBear wrote:

      Scortch,

       

      You're totally missing the point. ..................

      etc etc ...............

       

      OneCareBear

       

       

      You know OneCareBear, this is the kind of answers that makes me not even read your "lessons" anymore.

      MS-adict,

       

      You've already shown that you have no interest in using OneCare anymore, why do you insist on remaining in these forums relating to a product you have stated you have no interest in using?

       

      OneCare isn't going to be suitable for every owner of a computer and there's no way it can ever become a 100% solution. Most people simply realize that and go try something else. What are you trying to accomplish?

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:20 PM
      Moderator
    • David,

       

            I also have a separate internal hard drive that I was using for nothing but backups. It's funny how I can share it on the network and backup my kids desktop and laptop to it but not the files from the hard drive on the same pc. So I went out and bought a 160GB External Hard Drive and connected it via eSata so I have a central backup location. Low and behold it won't work and I tried the workaround as setting it up as a centralized location from my laptop but that would not work either. Yet if I really wanted to I could share the main partition on my laptop and backup there...

       

      Seems like a simple and easy solution to just give the users the option and state "do it at your own risk".

       

      I also have a box running ubuntu that I am growing very fond of very quickly and these types of easy fixed that MS frowns upon will not only decrease their ever dropping popularity but less people will purchase licenses for this product because of limited options.

       

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:27 PM
    • Coorstyle,

       

      How did you configure the 'centralized location'? I just attempted a simple share on my C: drive myself and this was rejected as a local drive as I expected.

       

      I believe that the suggestion above stated that you must set your PC up as a 'Hub' computer and then perform the configuration as a network share. However, I didn't yet wish to make this change on my own laptop, so I didn't try this. Is this what you attempted?

       

      If this doesn't work, I do still believe there should be a workaround available. I'm just against making it too simple for the non-technical user to select it by mistake. There should be no harm in configuring a single PC as a Hub, it simply wouldn't normally be required with a single stand alone PC.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:44 PM
      Moderator
    •  OneCareBear wrote:

      Coorstyle,

       

      How did you configure the 'centralized location'? I just attempted a simple share on my C: drive myself and this was rejected as a local drive as I expected.

       

      I believe that the suggestion above stated that you must set your PC up as a 'Hub' computer and then perform the configuration as a network share. However, I didn't yet wish to make this change on my own laptop, so I didn't try this. Is this what you attempted?

       

      If this doesn't work, I do still believe there should be a workaround available. I'm just against making it too simple for the non-technical user to select it by mistake. There should be no harm in configuring a single PC as a Hub, it simply wouldn't normally be required with a single stand alone PC.

       

      OneCareBear

       

      I had both my Work Desktop and laptop set as hubs. I shared my External eSata drive but when I tried to set it up as the centralized backup point from my laptop, I always received the message that there were not read or write permissions on that drive even though I checked "allow network users to make changes to my files" I also tried this with my second internal drive with the same results.I could set this up if I shared the main C: drive on my laptop and set it up through my Work Desktop. Not sure why this worked and the others didn't. When I unshared the eSata drive, it always said there is one person connected to this drive...etc... even though I was not in it or doing anything with it. I only played with this for a short time so I may have overlooked something.

       

       

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 4:57 PM
    • Oh, one other thing I just thought of that could make a difference. My Work Desktop is running Vista Home Premium where my laptop is running XP 2005  MCE.

       

      As for MS-adict. I think he wants to use this product as I do but the limitations are making him look elsewhere. Yet he remains in the forums with the hope that MS will listen to what the users are asking. Thats just my opinion of course.

       

      Ryan Lytle

      Director Of IT/Operations

      Secure Call Management  

      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:04 PM
    • guys, guys; It's just software. No need to get in a tizzy.

      Scortch; you probably are too advanced for the onecare product. It's a "Hand holding" type of design that helps your mom keep her photos of the grandkids safe. If you are more precocious then that you'd do better with a Symantec product for a bit more sophistication or one of the really expensive "enterprise" solutions for full control. I think you may be thinking that since the onecare product assumes it's users are not "technically proficient" that it is insulting you. It isn't. It's just not designed for you.

      OneCareBare; be nice to your forum dude. You are getting free market research here which is worth quite a bit of money. This isn't about voting for features it's about getting fresh perspectives on your product from the very people who will shell out the money to use it.

      As for the actual content of this thread: While I'm fully understanding of your last response OneCareBare; and I think it's better to not support internals then to do so without a really good "hand holding" design for selecting a backup location; I really fear that the shell's inadequate definition of "removable device" could cripple onecare if a particular ESATA device or something we haven't even seen yet suddenly becomes popular as an attached storage appliance. If this were my product I think I'd work really hard on that last design I suggested about trying to walk a user step by step through selecting a backup device and explaining the why and how of data protection and off site storage.
      Data backup and disaster protection is not simple. Trying to oversimplify it may be an error. In such cases where a software package is trying to provide a sophisticated service to simplistic users it demands the utmost of the information architect assigned to the job. I really hope that Microsoft can rise to the level that Apple has achieved in this area and recognize that simple "shell integration" is inadequate for "spectacularly usable" applications vis à vis iTunes.

      cheers,
      -scott a dixon
      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:07 PM
    • David,

       

      If you'll actually read, which is exactly why I don't believe this should be allowed because most people today won't, I've stated that I believe a workaround should be available. I just don't believe it should be a simple checkbox, since few will read the warning dialogs.

       

      The best reason I've heard to this point is hot swappable drives, even though many aren't truly supported by the Windows OS software itself, so data corruption is easily possible. As long as a technical user understands the risk they are taking, they should have a method to allow this. It simply shouldn't be advertised in the product itself, as this would cause some portion of the non-technical user population to try this with potentially disasterous results, since a damaged backup is often discovered only when it's too late.

       

      The danger is real, I've seen a lightning strike that wiped out a computer and most of the electronics in a 'wired' home that entered through the cable connection which was on power poles, with little visible damage and no fire. Any large electrical spike can kill today's high density electronics, so assuming it won't ever happen is just playing the odds, like any potential risk. OneCare is simply removing the largest potential set of risks in a simple manner, it doesn't make it possible.

       

      Think about the most difficult user you've ever had to deal with at a customer, they're the customer that OneCare is designed for. Granted, many of those with technical ability can make use of the product, but they simply aren't its primary target.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:24 PM
      Moderator
    •  Coorslytle wrote:

      Oh, one other thing I just thought of that could make a difference. My Work Desktop is running Vista Home Premium where my laptop is running XP 2005  MCE.

       

      < SNIP > 

        

       

      It could be the OS version, it might also be that the ability wasn't intended at all and it only occured by mistake as a side effect on that OS.

       

      I may take this one up the line and see if I can get an answer, since I'm actually more concerned about the apparent removal of the ability to add files and folders to backup, unless I've just missed it somewhere.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:44 PM
      Moderator
    • OK Thanks, ITM I will try doing this from my kids desktop who is also running XP to see if this makes any difference. I play around with it a bit more and let you know the results so you can pass those along if need be.

       

      Cheers,

      Ryan

      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:51 PM
    • You are sooooo right Ryan !

      Thank you.

       

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:57 PM
    • Well, I just think OneCare can be made to where it hand holds AND allows for advanced users also.

       

      I don't understand why OneCareBear is having such a hissy fit over something so simple that would make the life of many customers so much simpler. As has been stated, eSATA shows up as internal, even though it's designed for external. The round about way is lame and probably would never be explained in the docs on how to do it.

       

      A simple WARNING when selecting an internal drive would be sufficient. It's a simple thing to add. If your customers are wanting something added, why not add it when it's so simple? The other programs out there have added it.

       

      So far, I have not heard a Microsoft developer say they would not be adding it. I think we all need to be talking to them and explaining why we want the option. Maybe email Ngarg would do it. We really do need a developer, or someone from Microsoft in here discussing this.

      Monday, July 23, 2007 5:59 PM
    •  Scortch wrote:

      We really do need a developer, or someone from Microsoft in here discussing this.

       

      You are so right Scortch.

      We need somebody from MS in here.

      BUT !

      - Maybe not a pure tech developper who made already up his mind about what the user "has to want".

      - A marketeer would be the right person, he/she would listen to what people really need and try to see opportunities in stead of threats in what we are telling them.

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 6:26 PM
    • [quote user="
      < SNIP >


      As for the actual content of this thread: While I'm fully understanding of your last response OneCareBare; and I think it's better to not support internals then to do so without a really good "hand holding" design for selecting a backup location; I really fear that the shell's inadequate definition of "removable device" could cripple onecare if a particular ESATA device or something we haven't even seen yet suddenly becomes popular as an attached storage appliance. If this were my product I think I'd work really hard on that last design I suggested about trying to walk a user step by step through selecting a backup device and explaining the why and how of data protection and off site storage.
      Data backup and disaster protection is not simple. Trying to oversimplify it may be an error. In such cases where a software package is trying to provide a sophisticated service to simplistic users it demands the utmost of the information architect assigned to the job. I really hope that Microsoft can rise to the level that Apple has achieved in this area and recognize that simple "shell integration" is inadequate for "spectacularly usable" applications vis à vis iTunes.

      cheers,
      -scott a dixon

      Scott,

       

      I was actually surprised myself to discover that OneCare apparently goes beyond the shell to determine what device is really behind a location. It may be that simple text comparisons are made against driver names and everything else occurs through the shell, but at least some level of device verfication beyond the 'removable device' designation is being made. Otherwise, all flash devices and even some rare eSATA would be accepted and I've seen examples that aren't regardless of capacity.

       

      I thought when OneCare began we might see some of the 'step-by-step' or tutorial type of systems used for backup, but beyond the wizard I've seen little of this. I'm not certain if it's quantity of effort or concern that users won't read it, but it would be interesting to see it attempted. I currently have to base it on what I've seen over the last few years myself, with little interest in reading or understanding by most, even in the technical organizations where I've worked.

       

      Since most at home have never performed any sort of backup before, the original hope was to get most doing something, though the technical requirements have been quite heavily defined. What I'll be most interested in is how many will opt for the new 'Online backup' of photos, since this is probably the largest single category of true personal files (by capacity) of the target customer base of OneCare.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 23, 2007 6:41 PM
      Moderator
    • Yeah, online backup is really the best option overall but there are reasons that will gate it's acceptance.
      The best thing to emphasize is to use the online part to backup financial data and other essential legal documents. These will be relatively small and are the first thing to recover in a disaster.
      Music and video has the problem of upload bandwidth and service storage cost. I'm not sure what the business model would look like for charging users per year to store upwards of forty gigabytes; probably the minimum size for multimedia storage allocations. A "trickle" type algorithm could be employed to backup the data over time and when the data pipe was "quiet" to overcome the upload bandwidth constraint and the fact that files, once uploaded, rarely change make this a technologically feasible task. I think the cost per year for adequate size to store multimedia will gate the availability and adoption of online backup of music and video.
      As for photos, you have a different gating factor; competition. I use Flickr extensively and there are many such services that are becoming exceedingly popular. The side benefit of these services is de-facto backup of photos and it makes an online backup service for my photos unnecessary.
      In all a hybrid approach would be best for onecare's next release. Disk based for multimedia and online for critical data. I'd use that service myself and it would certainly add value to the subscription fee.

      cheers,
      -scott
      Monday, July 23, 2007 7:07 PM
    • I'm kinda nervous about online storage though. Sure, it's great because it's an off site storage, however I have security concerns. With so many places getting broke into by hackers, how safe is your financial information or whatever you store there? Photos will suck up your storage space fast so you have to be really selective, unless you can afford a lot more storage space online. What happens when the government says hey, we want access to this person's online storage? I mean I could care less if they do, I have nothing to hide but...

       

      I am working on assumtions here as I am not sure the specifics of online backup with OneCare.

       

      I'm not sure what Microsoft's Online storage prices and space is. If it's going to be photo only, then that will suck, especially since I am paying for it (paying through OneCare subscription or payingfor additional space). If I am going to pay for it, then I want to be able to backup whatever I want there. The other programs out there allow it. I agree that photos are not the only valuable data that would be nice to backup online for some people. I really don't understand them wanting to limit it to photos only. Why would they even care what you store there?

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 9:17 PM
    • I personally would never backup anything online. I am simply not comfortable enough with it.

       

      OneCareBear,

       

            I was able to sucessfully make my secondary internal drive a centralized backup location. I wasn't able to do the external because it is dead and I have to get it replaced. (It is only a week old)

       

       

      Monday, July 23, 2007 11:02 PM
    • Wow, that's really interesting. I assume Scortch and Coorslyte are Americans no? One forgets the paranoia of Americans (no offense guys; just being analytical). Canadians and the British don't have such qualms about governmental privacy so I imagine these markets will make more use of the online backup feature. As for security against malicious theft; it's far better to trust a NOC with a security professional in charge then your own home networks and computers.

      -scott
      Monday, July 23, 2007 11:18 PM
    •  MS-adict wrote:

      You are so right Scortch.

      We need somebody from MS in here.

      BUT !

      - Maybe not a pure tech developper who made already up his mind about what the user "has to want".

      - A marketeer would be the right person, he/she would listen to what people really need and try to see opportunities in stead of threats in what we are telling them.

       

       

      MS-adict,

      Microsoft gets the feedback from these forums. Developers and support people read the forum and they receive the summary feedback that the moderators  present to them on a regular basis.

      I can't speak for why Microsoft chooses not to support backing up to an internal drive, I can only speculate. I can also tell you that when OneCare was first tested before 1.0 was released, the *only* backup option was to CD/DVD. No other choices. Testers communicated their displeasure with the lack of external drives and network storage. Before 1.0 was relased, external drives were added. Guess what... Now everyone screamed that they wanted to use a Network Share for backup. We got it in 1.5. Once that was provided, the feedback was now that we *must* have support for a second internal drive.

      Will Microsoft respond and make it easy to select a second drive or partition for a backup destination? Perhaps. If they do, I hope that they throw a big warning message up if a user selects an internal drive as a backup destination.

      Should better support be provided for eSATA? Absolutely. However, based on the way most eSATA drives appear to be an internal drive to the OS, I think we won't see that until and if internal drives are supported as a backup destination.

       

      Personally, I don't see what the fuss is about. If you have a PC with multiple internal drives, you may also have external drives or additional machines that can be used for a valid backup destination today. Furthermore, I don't much care for the OneCare backup model. There are much better solutions for backup available for free or minimal cost. OneCare's backup is an excellent solution for the typical user who never backs up. The one who calls me up and tells me that Windows won't start or the BIOS is reporting no boot device present. If that user configures a simple backup to run monthly and write to DVD or CD or an external disk that he picked up for under $100 (I just ordered another 500 Gig external USB drive for under $140 US from Best Buy this morning), recovering from that disaster would be considerably less painful. The advanced users who recognize the importance of backup are probably already doing backups.

       

      Finally, off topic, I'll respond to the post that I didn't delete earlier - it was deleted by another moderator. I choose to moderate here because I am helping people and I enjoy that. You stated that I never answer any questions except by posting links and sending people to support. The reality is that the links to FAQ entries and previously answered threads help many people solve the basic problems. And sending someone to support is the appropriate response for a technical issue for which there is no known solution. I didn't delete  your latest post, but I've deleted others that added no value to the discussion and served only to attack. You've expressed your displeasure with OneCare. You are welcome to participate in a civil discussion. Attacks will not be tolerated.

      -steve

      Monday, July 23, 2007 11:42 PM
      Moderator
    • Scott, however, it's rare that someone will go to great lengths to break through a router or something to get to a computer they don't even know is out there on the web when the scans don't show it up. This leaves me pretty much more secure than a company that is known and is known to store confidential information.

       

      Anyway...

      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:14 AM
    •  basedissonance wrote:
      Wow, that's really interesting. I assume Scortch and Coorslyte are Americans no? One forgets the paranoia of Americans (no offense guys; just being analytical). Canadians and the British don't have such qualms about governmental privacy so I imagine these markets will make more use of the online backup feature. As for security against malicious theft; it's far better to trust a NOC with a security professional in charge then your own home networks and computers.

      -scott

       

           Well I for one have no concerns about governmental privacy. I do however have issues with data stored somewhere other than a location I am in. If for some reason this specific companies network goes down, I cannot access my files. If for some reason I lose internet connection at a time when I need one of the files, I can't get to them. If the company goes under, it could take some time to get those files back.

       

      I would be more inclined to backup online if the data is encrypted with a key that only I know but even then the reasons above would prevent me from doing so. But as far as getting hacked, Canadians are targeted just as much as Americans are. Just ask the Romanians who hacked ebay Smile

       

      Cheers,

      Ryan

       

       

      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:20 AM
    • I used to share your view on "target quality" security scortch until the advent of "zombie" cluster attacks that is. Remembering that OneCare is a "mother-in-law" type solution; your mother-in-law is more likely to get her computer usurped for such zombie networks then the professionally run NOC. But you do have a valid point and it will be crucial for Microsoft OnceCare "live" to reassure and assure their users that no stupid marketing guy's laptop getting left in a rental car will cause 100,000 users to have their Quicken backups up on eBay for auction.
      As for Ryan's concern about the service contract with a company who can go under; this is exactly why it's a great Idea for Microsoft to implement online backup. I would not trust most online companies with my critical backup data but with Microsoft's 40 billion dollars cash-on-hand they can offer a unique level of trust that fifty years from now, as long as you keep that OneCare subscription current, you'll be able to get your data back. If I were the product manager of OneCare live backup I'd go so far as to offer a service contract that says even if you stop paying you'll have access to your backed up data for the next 50 - 100 years (you just can't upload any new backups unless your account is current). That "lifetime guarantee" is a feature that Microsoft can both sell and deliver.

      -scott
      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:45 AM
    • I'll just add one more thing about ESATA OneCareBare and then I'll shut up; I'm a developer that spends a lot of time dealing with the top end of consumer bus bandwidth use; High Definition video recording and playback. As Microsoft's Vista media center begins to ship with O.C.U.R. support (Open Cable Unidirectional Receiver) the proliferation of ESATA ports and devices will increase as users start amassing vast High Definition Movie libraries from their HBO subscriptions and look for quick ways of increasing their storage capacity. As HD video drives ESATA sales and availability upwards backup appliances will invariably become more and more centered around these existing ESATA platforms. I predict OneCare will be forced into supporting ESATA because of HD video on PC proliferation and so they should carefully consider how and when to turn on this support without jeopardizing their goal of encouraging good backup practices.
      No more about ESATA from me, I promise ;-)

      -scott
      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:54 AM
    •  OneCareBear wrote:

      David,

       

      If you'll actually read, which is exactly why I don't believe this should be allowed because most people today won't, I've stated that I believe a workaround should be available. I just don't believe it should be a simple checkbox, since few will read the warning dialogs.

       

      The best reason I've heard to this point is hot swappable drives, even though many aren't truly supported by the Windows OS software itself, so data corruption is easily possible. As long as a technical user understands the risk they are taking, they should have a method to allow this. It simply shouldn't be advertised in the product itself, as this would cause some portion of the non-technical user population to try this with potentially disasterous results, since a damaged backup is often discovered only when it's too late.

       

      The danger is real, I've seen a lightning strike that wiped out a computer and most of the electronics in a 'wired' home that entered through the cable connection which was on power poles, with little visible damage and no fire. Any large electrical spike can kill today's high density electronics, so assuming it won't ever happen is just playing the odds, like any potential risk. OneCare is simply removing the largest potential set of risks in a simple manner, it doesn't make it possible.

       

      Think about the most difficult user you've ever had to deal with at a customer, they're the customer that OneCare is designed for. Granted, many of those with technical ability can make use of the product, but they simply aren't its primary target.

       

      OneCareBear

      Happened in my home as well and if a contractor did the job correctly that is bull. Most buildings in the past 40 years use a default if you will grounding spike. I had it here in my home office and the worst I lost was a modem and power supply and that was paid for by APC and the other surge protection. Ops oh yeah and the printer got nailed which HP replaced for free. I did not say it would not happen nor that the danger is not real. However that is what the local technician is for and that is me and my business and income. I am a firm believer that just because a product is availabable to all that all should have it just because they could come up with the money. Technology is privalege not a right.  I said it is rare in deed. I wonder when we will be able to backup God and stop His so called mistakes.

      P.S. I was in the home when it hit and got knocked off my chair and flung across the room. *S*

      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:47 AM
    • Hmm you really think DVD and CD are more reliable and less hand holding than internal dirves? *ROTFLMSBO*
      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:09 AM
    •  OneCareBear wrote:

      David,

       

      If you'll actually read, which is exactly why I don't believe this should be allowed because most people today won't, I've stated that I believe a workaround should be available. I just don't believe it should be a simple checkbox, since few will read the warning dialogs.

       

      The best reason I've heard to this point is hot swappable drives, even though many aren't truly supported by the Windows OS software itself, so data corruption is easily possible. As long as a technical user understands the risk they are taking, they should have a method to allow this. It simply shouldn't be advertised in the product itself, as this would cause some portion of the non-technical user population to try this with potentially disasterous results, since a damaged backup is often discovered only when it's too late.

       

      The danger is real, I've seen a lightning strike that wiped out a computer and most of the electronics in a 'wired' home that entered through the cable connection which was on power poles, with little visible damage and no fire. Any large electrical spike can kill today's high density electronics, so assuming it won't ever happen is just playing the odds, like any potential risk. OneCare is simply removing the largest potential set of risks in a simple manner, it doesn't make it possible.

       

      Think about the most difficult user you've ever had to deal with at a customer, they're the customer that OneCare is designed for. Granted, many of those with technical ability can make use of the product, but they simply aren't its primary target.

       

      OneCareBear

      If I actually read! Insults to partners are not good.

      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:11 AM
    •  David Ranieri wrote:
      Hmm you really think DVD and CD are more reliable and less hand holding than internal dirves? *ROTFLMSBO*

      Are you replying to my post, David? I didn't say that. I did say that the original design of OneCare was to only backup to CD/DVD. That is not without its own problems, if you've seen the posts with problems in backing up to CD/DVD due to media problems and software conflicts ( media watch type programs and packet writing software holding the burner).

      -steve

      Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:30 PM
      Moderator
    •  

      I have to say even though I know it is not the best I would like to be able to choose a internal drive.  From all my PC's and builds I have never had more then one HD fry at a time.  I would say add it but as stated in many posts just add a warning for the end user.  I am still wanting to add a networked HD just for this kind of setup but I know most end users that are not tech minded would just want the internal.
      Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:52 AM
    • David,

       

      Remember, I'm not a Microsoft employee, so I'm not directly your partner. However, I considered removing that portion, but had to leave in a rush, so it remained in the post. I do regret that portion, since what I'd expected you to read was actually in another post in this now huge spidery thread.

       

      Thanks for your response to the posts actual content [lightning], and see my other response relating to what I've learned about Internal drives and eSATA above.

       

      OneCareBear

      Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:16 AM
      Moderator
    • Scott and everyone interested,

       

      I attended the 2.0 Beta Chat and got an answer to the internal drive question there. For now I'll just state that they aren't considering internal backup as a viable option, but eSATA is considered a unique case since it's 'closer to USB', and they're looking for a solution to this.

       

      I didn't ask specifics of reasoning, though I think we've already covered that fairly completely already. My primary concern was trying to get you a clear indication of whether there were any plans or not, which I think this has accomplished.

       

      Once I'm certain how the transcripts of the session have been made available, I'll either link you to them or post the specific Q&A info here.

       

      OneCareBear

      Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:31 AM
      Moderator
    •  OneCareBear wrote:

       

      Once I'm certain how the transcripts of the session have been made available, I'll either link you to them or post the specific Q&A info here.

       

      OneCareBear

      It is my understanding that the transcript will be made available on Connect - http://connect.microsoft.com/site/sitehome.aspx?SiteID=168

       

      -steve

      Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:44 AM
      Moderator
    • Yea, pissed me off. I got tied up working on my computer (my Quad core came in today) and I forgot all about the Chat Sad I so wanted to go there.

       

      Allowing internal drive selection will still be the simplest way to solve the eSATA issue. Everyone else offers it. WTH not offer it here. Just do it, get it over with, problem solved for eSATA and for those that just want it.

       

      Thanks for the heads up though.
      Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:00 AM
    •  

      As long as I have several computers running. I am fine with the workaround but it would be nice to see this. Progress. Allowing Internal drives will solve most of theissues here including the removables.

       

      Cheers

      Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:31 PM
    • I'm using WinXP pro and I can't get the backup "workaround" to work. It says "the folder is on a local harddrive and we won't use this". ugh. I guess I'm going to have to switch to Norton.
      Sunday, July 29, 2007 5:57 PM
    • Are you using a different PC than the one with the hard drive to setup the centralized back up device? My backup is on my work desktop so I set the centralized backup with my laptop and it worked fine.

      Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:11 PM
    • Everyone,

       

      For a more complete explanation of both Internal backup and other Backup design decisions, see the new FAQ entry at the top of this forum. You'll find that the workaround already discussed will be improved by the time 2.0 is released, so this should allow those wanting Internal Backup a method to make it happen.

       

      I'm still reading through the FAQ myself, but I'm glad to see many of the common questions addressed.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, July 30, 2007 4:55 AM
      Moderator
    • Let me put it this way. I need a backup product that can both backup my data files and image the entire hard drive and save it where I choose. I could tell you some horror stories I have avoided by having an up to date complete image of my C: partition using Norton Ghost. This will also make it easy to upgrade you Primary HDD to a larger one using a drive image program.

       

      It is very simple. If MS designes a product that most of the users want, then they will buy it. If not people won't. For me I was hoping that "OneCare" as the name implies, would BLOW THE COMPETION AWAY! At this point there is little difference between OneCare and Nortons 360.

       

      Please consider if MS wants to be the TOP DOG in this areana of Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware, Backup etc. or are you going to continue letting Symantec clean your clock. Don't get me wrong, Norton products have their short-commings also. But if MS is not going to truly offer "OneCare" for my computer then I suggest you change the name. At this point it is very misleading to the average consumer.

       

      Thanks for hearing me out.

      Monday, August 20, 2007 4:28 PM
    • Ernie,

       

      OneCare isn't intended to be the ultimate end-all product for everything you'd ever want, it's just trying to be a good solid protection product with simple automation of mundane maintenance for the non-technical user.

       

      Long ago it was stated that OneCare isn't intended to compete directly with capabilities included in some versions of Windows Vista, such as image backup, but rather to complement them with simpler abilities for the non-technical user.

       

      Those who are unhappy with this direction tend to be ascribing the product with their own assumptions based on preconceptions, sometimes related to the name of the product which is simply a part of marketing. That's why there is a 90 day free trial and these forums, so prospective users can understand the product's abilities before they buy.

       

      MIcrosoft isn't trying to be Top-Dog, they're focusing on the non-technical user who has been badly served by the overly complex products that have existed up until now. These users don't want imaging, they just want their computer to keep working without having to perform the maintenance operations themselves at a low annual cost. If this doesn't describe you then OneCare may not be the right product for you.

       

      OneCareBear

      Monday, August 20, 2007 4:53 PM
      Moderator
    • Thanks OneCareBear for the clarification. There are a lot of users out there still using WinXP and don't plan on upgrading any time soon to Vista, like me. So there is the need for a good product that will meet our needs in the Backup areana using imaging.

       

      I will say that OneCare does seem to interface better with WinXP and use less system resorces than the Norton 360 does. My boot up cycle is shorter with OneCare. That I like. So for the near future I will continue using OneCare and Norton Ghost 10 for my backups. I definately don't care for the Backup part of OneCare nor the Backup part of Norton 360 either. Both of these products work about the same except Norton's will allow you to use what ever media you want.

       

      Monday, August 20, 2007 5:05 PM
    • Norton is still better at this point in time. It will allow you to select ANYTHING you want and back it up to ANY location you want, even their online location. A HUGE plus for me. Norton is more logical in how they do it. Less headaches for the user.

       

      Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:07 AM
    • You make a good point.  However, can you explain to me the difference in using an external USB drive versus and internal drive?  from the point of view that the external USB is OK but the internal drive is not.

      Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:20 PM
    •  P Beaulieu wrote:

      You make a good point.  However, can you explain to me the difference in using an external USB drive versus and internal drive?  from the point of view that the external USB is OK but the internal drive is not.

      In the case of an Internal drive, if it is a single internal drive with multiple partitions, and the drive fails, all data is lost.

      If there are two drives and there is a hardware failure where the typical user will bring the PC back to the store or ship it off to the OEM, all data may be lost if the repair puts the PC back to factory condition. (yes, not likely with two drives...)

      If you have an external USB drive, you can carry the drive to a new PC or a rebuilt PC and restore the data after installing OneCare.

      If you have an external drive, you could (though not likely) store the drive in a "safe" location if needed.

      I'm sure that there were other design discussions, but that's what comes to mind right now.

      -steve

      Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:01 PM
      Moderator
    • Also, they feel the external is different in that you could grab it if a fire broke out or something else happened. With an extra internal drive, you would have to grab the whole computer. They are trying to protect you from yourself.

       

      Personally I think you are better off just using raid 1 and using a full backup program (like Acronis Trueimage) once a week or whatever you feel comfortable with, to an external drive.

       

      The chances of both drives going out at the same time are VERY slim and even if it did, you could restore your entire system without having to reinstall everything.

      Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:06 PM
    • I Tried this method but I was way over my head.  Can you help with a step by step that any fool (me) can follow?

       

      morease

       

       

      Tuesday, October 9, 2007 5:15 PM
    • kumaaragiritirumaladevaraya

       

      your quote: Use it for centralized network backup destination (note: not the normal network backup) (eg.. .\\this_machine_name\share ) Use it for centralized network backup destination (note: not the normal network backup) (eg.. .\\this_machine_name\share )

       

      I tried this method but I'm above my head.  Could you help with a step by step for me?

       

      morease

      Tuesday, October 9, 2007 5:25 PM
    •  morease wrote:

      I Tried this method but I was way over my head.  Can you help with a step by step that any fool (me) can follow?

       

      morease

      From the online help:

       

      Set user permissions for a centralized backup device

      Before you can use a shared network drive or external hard disk as a central backup device for all computers in your OneCare circle, you must make sure that all users on the network have the correct permissions to access it.

      By default, Windows XP uses simple file sharing. If the centralized backup device is connected to a computer that's running Windows XP Home Edition, all users on the network automatically have the correct permissions to access the device. However, if the centralized backup device is connected to a computer that's running Windows XP Professional Edition or Windows Vista, simple file sharing is turned off when you create a backup plan that uses a centralized backup device. Before you can access the device from other computers in your circle, you must set permissions that allow access to all users.

      To configure the shared backup device so that all users on the network can access it:
      1. On the computer that the backup device is connected to, navigate to the appropriate backup folder or drive.
      2. Right-click the backup folder or drive, and then click Properties.
      3. In Windows XP, on the Sharing tab, click Share this folder, and then click Permissions.

        –or–

        In Windows Vista, on the Sharing tab, click Advanced Sharing. Click Share this folder, and then click Permissions.

      4. Under Group or user names, make sure that Everyone is selected.
      5. Under Permissions for Everyone, in the Allow column, select the Full Control check box.

       

      Once you have configured the Share, you can then configure centralized backup:

       

      Create a backup plan

      To help avoid losing important data, you should create a backup plan to back up your files regularly. You can create a separate plan for individual computers, or create a plan that uses a central backup device for all the computers in your OneCare circle. You can create a plan that uses a central backup device only from a hub PC.

      To create a backup plan:
      1. Open Windows Live OneCare.
      2. Under Quick links, click Change settings.
      3. On the Backup tab, click Configure backup.
      4. Do one of the following:
         Create a back up plan for a single computer
        1. If you're creating a backup plan for the first time on a hub PC, on the Change backup settings screen, click Skip this step.

          –or–

          If you're creating a backup plan for the first time on a computer that's not a hub PC, click Next. Otherwise, click Change settings.

        2. In the left column, click the computer that you want to create a backup plan for.
         Create a back up plan for your OneCare circle
        1. If you haven't created a OneCare circle, on the Change backup settings screen, click Use an existing device.

          –or–

          If you've created a OneCare circle, click Change settings.

        2. In the left column, click Backup plan for all PCs.
      5. Do one or more of the following:
         Select a location to back up your files to
         Select a backup schedule
         Select the files or folders that you want to include or exclude from your backup
      6. Click Next.
      7. Review the plan, and then click Save.
      Notes
      • If you don't want other computers in your circle to be able to modify the backup settings, in the Backup plan for all PCs area, select the Only allow these settings to be changed on a hub PC check box.

      -steve

      Monday, October 15, 2007 6:46 PM
      Moderator
    •  

      > What I can't understand is how those who keep asking for this can't get the point, it's just plain

      > a bad idea to backup within the same system, for many reasons primarily related to hardware

      > failure and based on well known industry best practices. This has been the statement in Help

      > since well before OneCare 1.0 was ever released:

       

      What I don't understand is why you repeatedly fail to see that people who are asking for the feature are using hard drives that are external. but that OneCare mistakenly classifies as "internal". In my case, an external drive connected via eSATA. In other cases, NAS devices.

       

      I also don't really understand this paternalistic attitude toward users. Are you suggesting that I, as an advanced user, shouldn't be using OneCare?

       

      > this generally implies much smaller capacities and less need for high data bandwidth.

       

      My current OneCare backup spans 3 dvds, and my music collection, which would require another 2 has been excluded. (Yes, every single byte of them is legal, and many are DRM protected, so they urgently need backup). Regular DVD backup is not a serious option for me.

       

      Please reconsider.

       

       

       

       

      Saturday, November 24, 2007 2:11 AM
    • Robin, I know that the team is actively working to allow the use of eSATA drives for backup. As you noted, they are often seen as internal to Windows, so they have a challenge to resolve this.

      -steve

      Saturday, November 24, 2007 2:27 AM
      Moderator
    •  

       

      > I'm not convinced that the average home user will want to purchase one of these drives anyway, since

      > I see more value for most in the online backup option being added in the WLOC 2.0 beta.

       

      What makes you think that the average home user is going to be happy with selective and minimal backup? You're not going to back up their precious home videos? Or their 3GB of photos from their 10 megapixel digital camera? (mine are current 3.2GB, and my camera's only a year old). Or their 7GB of hatefully DRM-protected (but purchased) audio files. Or little Sarah's school project where she copied and pasted bitmaps into the word document without checking the "compress images" option?  

       

      These types of drives are mainstream now, and anyone can pick one up for a song. e.g.:

       

      500GB  eSATA/USB for $149.00.

      http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496771&CMP=KAC-Froogle

       

      Western Digital and Seagate are both actively selling external eSATA drives for similar prices; and every mom and pop computer store in my neighborhood is littered with 3.5" external drive enclosures that support both eSATA and USB. (slightly cheaper to buy the drive separately).

       

      As of this afternoon, the incremental cost of a eSATA/USB device over a USB-only device is $7.00.

       

      It's also worth noting that USB 2.0 can't actually keep up with the maximum data transfer rate of a 7200rpm 500GB drive, but eSATA can. So there's serious motivation to use eSATA rather than clogging up valuable USB 2.0 bandwidth.

       

      This thread: eSATA hotplug devices show up as external in XP, but not Vista.

       

      http://forums.nvidia.com/lofiversion/index.php?t25792.html

       

      The thread indicates that the nVidia eSATA drivers for XP support hotplug. (My motherboard is actually using nVIDIA eSATA connectors, but vista drivers). The core issue: nVidia XP eSATA drivers support hotplug, but Microsoft Vista drivers for the same chipset do not.

       

      If this were a difficult feature I could understand your concern. But it isn't. A warning dialog. That's all it takes.

       

      Please please reconsider.

      Saturday, November 24, 2007 2:49 AM
    • I have discovered a way to enable an internal hard drive as a OneCare backup device, without requiring registering the PC as a Hub PC.  This worked in Windows Vista Home Premium [YRMV in other OS].

       

      First, I clicked Start / Network / Network and Sharing Center -- then I turned ON File Sharing and Public Folder Sharing, and I turned OFF Password Protected Sharing.  (If you use a password on your Windows logon, then I would suggest leaving this turned ON.)

       

      Second, I clicked Start / Network -- then I clicked on the icon for my pc (KIRK-PC, in my case).

       

      Third, I right-clicked the icon for my second (internal) hard drive (e, in my case), and clicked Map Network Drive, then I left the option set to Z for the new drive letter, and clicked FINISH (if you have Password Protected Sharing turned ON, this is where it would ask you for the password, but since mine was off, it just went on and) -- a new window opened showing (\\KIRK-PC\E) (ZSmile -- and I was ready.

       

      Fourth, I entered Z: for the network location in the OneCare backup settings, and it happily recognized this as a "networked drive".  I then ran backup, and it worked just fine.

       

      You're welcome.

       

      Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:00 PM
    • Thanks Greg. I don't know why someone did not think of the before now. This would definately be easier. I hope OneCare folks don't do a patch to keep this from working.(Although I don't think there would be a way to determine the fisical location of the "network drive".)

      Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:31 PM
    •  Ernie Lane wrote:

      Thanks Greg. I don't know why someone did not think of the before now. This would definately be easier. I hope OneCare folks don't do a patch to keep this from working.(Although I don't think there would be a way to determine the fisical location of the "network drive".)

      Actually, the OneCare backup team currently refers people to this solution and it is mentioned in the FAQ post at the top of this folder. They don't recommend it, but for someone understanding the risks, the solution is available. Greg has provided an excellent "how-to" for this workaround.

      -steve

      Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:48 AM
      Moderator
    •  

      Ok I know this is something that is just not hitting me what I am doing wrong.  From Greg's steps I did steps one and two just fine but when I go into my PC I show my printer and a puplic folder but not any of my HD so I can re-map it.
      Monday, December 24, 2007 4:17 AM
    •  veener79 wrote:

       

      Ok I know this is something that is just not hitting me what I am doing wrong.  From Greg's steps I did steps one and two just fine but when I go into my PC I show my printer and a puplic folder but not any of my HD so I can re-map it.

      Instead of clicking Network and then your computer, open Windows Explorer and select the folder you wish to Share and right click it and Share the folder via Properties or Sharing.

      -steve

      Monday, December 24, 2007 3:00 PM
      Moderator
    • Open up "My Computer". If it's not on the desktop, click on start menu and find it on the right side. In "My Computer", you will see a list of all drives. Right click the one you want to use and click "Sharing and security.." and go from there to enbale sharing on that drive. If oyu would rather just share certain folders, do as Steve suggested.

       

      Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM
    • Thanks for your help I was able to get father then I have been able to but I am stuck again. 

       

      The Z drive does show up as a network drive now and I can see it when I go to choose it in onecare.  These are the problems I have though.  When I go to select it under onecare under Computer my Z drive had as a Red X and I can not select it.  But if though explorer I check under My Computer I have no issues.  Then when I go into the network location and try to choose it I am getting the same error. 

       

      I think I know what the problem is.  Under my user name I do not have permission to the drive.  But when I check to give myself permission I am getting acess denied.  I just need to figure out how to get my self access to the drive because I got the drive there but I have no permission to write to it even though I created it. 

       

      I hope all these issues are going to help someone else out. 

      Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:37 PM
    •  

      Ok I found my error that I made and I wanted to post it so that if anyone else does this mistake they know how to fix it.  When I set up sharing on my D: drive I fogot to check off that everyone could write to the HD.  To fix it I had to turn off file sharing for the HD and redo it.  Now that I have done that it is all fixed. 

       

      Thanks GregKirkpatrick for your help on this.  I just have to stop doing this kind of work on holidays with just a little sleep.   I just got into looking back into it tonight and it hit me what I forgot to do.

      Friday, December 28, 2007 11:46 PM
    • And thank you for explaining what you needed to do to finally get it set up for you.

      -steve

       

      Wednesday, January 2, 2008 12:46 AM
      Moderator
    • Hi Stephen, I had installed a usb board and usb/ide cable to allow installing a HD in the case to make the computer think it was an external. However, after all the changes to One Care, I have finally thrown in the towel. I now use it only for virus and spam. and even then, I am forced to run another spam/ad program that finds hundreds of ad links that One Care did not prevent. I own about 9 copies of One Care and when they have expired, I will look at something else. I have installed Acronis as my backup device since it is obvious Microsoft has no intention to tighten up One Care, allow selection of internal IDE or SATA Drives and make it a serious backup program where the entire system drive (including windows) can be backed up and restored. I think for $49, Microsoft should offer a little more? Thank goodness my ISP has Virus and some Spam protection? In closing, someone is going to come along and offer these things that users have been requesting as long as I've owned One Care. Someone is going to recognize these limitations and come out with a suite that will do it all. Then Microsoft will be playing catch up or buy out the company to limit competition. But thanks for being such a strong supporter and doing your best. James

      Monday, January 7, 2008 12:05 PM
    • They already have. It's called Norton 360 and Bitdefender's Total Security.

       

      Monday, January 7, 2008 4:26 PM
    • Didn't work in my case -- I just bought a VANTEC NEXSTAR 3 LS 3.5" PATA NDAS USB2 BLACK NST-360LS-BK, the HD drive can be configured via a router using RJ45, pretty cool!!! The driver provided by VANTEC allows the external HD to be  recognized ans an internal HD ... obviously VANTECs management had put some thought into this. LiveOneCAre won't allow me to backup on this HD as it still states “backup cannot continue because the backup location specified is a folder on the local computer ….”

       

      I am considering to drop OneCare and go elesewhere ... obviously Microsoft has an attritude!!!!

       

       

       

      Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:54 AM
    • As James stated he wanted a program that would do it all include backup windows programs. Norton 360 WILL NOT backup any windows programs. But the Norton System works backup will backup windows programs.

      Wednesday, January 9, 2008 4:28 PM
    •  Andrea Vocino wrote:

      Didn't work in my case -- I just bought a VANTEC NEXSTAR 3 LS 3.5" PATA NDAS USB2 BLACK NST-360LS-BK, the HD drive can be configured via a router using RJ45, pretty cool!!! The driver provided by VANTEC allows the external HD to be  recognized ans an internal HD ... obviously VANTECs management had put some thought into this. LiveOneCAre won't allow me to backup on this HD as it still states “backup cannot continue because the backup location specified is a folder on the local computer ….”

       

      I am considering to drop OneCare and go elesewhere ... obviously Microsoft has an attritude!!!!

       

       

       

      See Greg's post on how to use Centralized Backup to configure a network share on the drive that appears to Windows to be an internal drive.

      http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2582583&SiteID=2

      -steve

      Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:42 AM
      Moderator
    •  Ernie Lane wrote:

      As James stated he wanted a program that would do it all include backup windows programs. Norton 360 WILL NOT backup any windows programs. But the Norton System works backup will backup windows programs.

       

      Yes it will. If you click on Add Files or Add folder, it will back up whatever you tell it to. If you click Add Folder and select the windows folder, it will back up the entire folder. If you select Program Files as t he folder, it will back up the entire folder. I know, I do it to some of the folders on my system.

       

      Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:43 AM
    • I used Norton 360 for a while. Check out the file types in the documentation that 360 will backup. I tried backingup Windows system folders then I did a compare and found that 360 did not backup some of the files within the folder. It did however backup some of the files but not all and it did not backup .EXE or other necessary program file.

      Maybe Norton 360 has changed but 6 months ago when I switched to OneCare it did not backup all the necessary System files.

       

      Just make sure you have ALL the files your want and don't assume because it backedup the folder it got all the files.

       

      This is a fault of OneCare also. It will NOT do a complete backup of system files necessary to restore your computer!!

      I sent in a request this be added shortly after starting to use the Beta 2.0 and found this out.

       

      PLEASE SOMEONE LISTEN TO YOUR USERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and make the changes your users want.  Thanks.

      Thursday, January 10, 2008 3:49 PM
    • I use it all the time and when you use Add file, Add Folder, it will override any of the presets.

       

      Also, it's not an image backup program. That's not it's purpose but, it does allow you to choose what files and folders you want to backup, on TOP of preset categories. Something One Care does not allow. It will also allow oyu to backup to any drive, even internal ones.

       

      A lot of people have requested the change but, Microsoft knows better what is important (at least they think they do) and thus they ignore the users.

       

      Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:37 PM
    • Interestingly enough, after my previous post, OneCare seemed to have downloaded and installed an upgrade on my machine and now the system allows me to back up to the internal drive, provided that I configure the drive in the same way suggested by Greg, thanks Greg!!! However, one of the major drawbacks of this system is that it doesn't allow me to decide which drives to back up (from). In my specific case, as I mentioned in my previous post, my external drive (VANTEC) is configured in a way that makes the external hard drive to be recognized as an internal hard drive. In such a drive I have other files that do not need to be backed up because they are already previous backups that I did before having OneCare. I have noticed that OneCare backs up those file as well ... wasting a lot of my hard drive space. Customers need flexibility and need to be able to make choices about their actions using the most suitable strategy according to their status quo. Obviously OneCare had not thought about these external hard drives technological advances, but I believe that OneCare should adapt to the continues changing environment [as we do] and most importantly to the needs and wants of their customers.  

       

      Andrea   

       

      PS I am still considering to move to a more sophisticated system. I need to be in charge of my decisions ... not OneCare

       

      Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:29 PM
    •  Andrea Vocino wrote:

      In my specific case, as I mentioned in my previous post, my external drive (VANTEC) is configured in a way that makes the external hard drive to be recognized as an internal hard drive. In such a drive I have other files that do not need to be backed up because they are already previous backups that I did before having OneCare. I have noticed that OneCare backs up those file as well ... wasting a lot of my hard drive space. 

      Andrea, you can exclude the entire drive or any folders you want from being scanned for files to back up.

      -steve

      Friday, January 11, 2008 4:13 PM
      Moderator
    • I am new to WL Onecare...

      this especially to the Microsoft personal on this thread....

      I have been trying to find a workaround for backing up my main drive to a 2nd drive on this pc...

      and instead of a simple walkthru of how to perform this... I had to get little  bits of info out  of many messages..

      Why could not one of the Microsoft trained members give a detailed step by step operation on what should be done to perform this work around, pure and simple... instead of reading thru 7 pages of what is wrong w/ onecare and what MS should do...

       

      the reason I read forums is for possible fixes to my problems that I might encounter.

      thanks

       

       

      Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:04 AM
    •  jsme304 wrote:

      I am new to WL Onecare...

      this especially to the Microsoft personal on this thread....

      I have been trying to find a workaround for backing up my main drive to a 2nd drive on this pc...

      and instead of a simple walkthru of how to perform this... I had to get little  bits of info out  of many messages..

      Why could not one of the Microsoft trained members give a detailed step by step operation on what should be done to perform this work around, pure and simple... instead of reading thru 7 pages of what is wrong w/ onecare and what MS should do...

       

      the reason I read forums is for possible fixes to my problems that I might encounter.

      thanks

       

       

      The reason that you had to read through a bunch of posts is that backing up to another internal drive is not supported in OneCare and the information here is actually a workaround. I'm sorry it took a while to find the solution, but I'm glad that the forum did apparently help you out. Note that the forum is for community support and discussion, though some Microsoft personnel do join us here once in a while.

      -steve

      Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:41 PM
      Moderator
    • And now you understand why I will not renew my subscriptions (6) to Windows OneCare when they run out.  Microsoft refuses to listen to what we want.  Thousands of people have complained about not being able to back up files to a second internal hard drive, but Microsoft just gives insulting excuses such as:

       

      "This is because our design center is for a user that may not completely understand the nature of the problem addressed here." 

       

      My suggestion to current users who are as frustrated as I am with Microsofts refusal to listen is to download a copy of "Second Copy" (cost $29 at http://www.secondcopy.com/).  It will make any back-ups you desire to your second internal drive as OneCare should. Then look for a replacement for Windows One-Care - a program whose only care seems to be to ignore the wishes of many.  As for the work around solutions posted, I don't want to have to out-smart my software, I want it to do what I want without a hassle, that is why Windows One-Care appealed to me when I first saw it.  Oh, by-the-way, Second Copy allows you to back up anything you wish, and still use space on the second drive to store other files.  Apparently Microsoft won't allow this either.

       

      "If you have two hard disks in your machine, we still disallow this action.  This is because our design center is for a user that may not completely understand the nature of the problem addressed here.  If we checked the second disk and saw there was no data on the disk and therefore allowed the user to target the second disk, there is nothing that would keep data from being written to the second disk subsequently.  We feel it is important to protect the data and not allow a case that could result in data loss."

       

      As one person who doesn't "complete understand the nature of the problem," I choose to support software developers who listen to their customers and make changes if a large number of them request it.  Apparently Microsoft isn't willing to do this because we simply are not capable of understanding "the problem" as they are.

       

       

      Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:26 PM
    • I agree that eSATA is going to be more widely used in the near future.

      FYI - I just completed my initial backup on my Vista Ultimate Media Server - 425GB took almost 30 hours via USB (yes I did read the item on removing the forced usb 1.5 jumper on those new Seagate drives but...). I also use the hardware vendor "hot swap" feature and rotate drives each week. 500GB drives are now $109. eSATA/USB housings are $40. I dont remember seeing too many ethernet connected 500GB external drives for $150.  Running a separate PC just to host backup is not the answer either.

      FYI - I would prefer an external gig-enet 1TB backup box with removeable drives. I cant afford what is currently out there today compared to eSATA...

       

      I'll try the "share" workaround on this weekends backup....

       

      Friday, April 4, 2008 2:14 AM
    • I agree,,, ____ not a very effective application - what is the problem in having an extra hard drive or a partition for the backups?  I can understand if it was the C: primary hard drive along with the operations system, but we are talking about a second hard drive or a third?
      They need to listen and enhance or will lose customers?

      Albert

      Sunday, August 9, 2009 2:57 AM
    • Albert, I suggest that you disable backup in OneCare and seek an alternative backup solution. OneCare is at end of life, though subscriptions will be supported through their end of term or end of 2010, whichever comes first. OneCare backup will not be changed.
      -steve
      Microsoft MVP Windows Live / Windows Live OneCare, Live Mesh, & MS Security Essentials Forums Moderator
      Monday, August 10, 2009 12:09 PM
      Moderator