Disastrous File Deletion by Live Mesh

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  I'm sorry to hear you have lost some files. While some unforseen interaction between Live Mesh and Beinsync most likely caused the data loss on the computer where both applications were installed, Live Mesh could not delete files from a computer on which it is not installed. I suggest continuing to attempt to submit your Live Mesh bug report ( Connect can be flakey at times ) and I would also check for a solution with Beinsync support - http://www.beinsync.com/support/  I also found this in the Beinsync Knowledge Base:
  

  What happens to my files in BeInSync when I delete them?

  Solution

  When a file is deleted in BeInSync it will be sent to the following locations:
  
  On the local computer the file will be sent to the recycle bin on that computer.
  
  On the remote computers the file will be sent to the special deleted items folder that is created with every synced and shared folder in BeInSync. Any files that exist in this folder can be restored (right-click the files to restore them).

   

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  Jim - MVP Windows Live - Forum Moderator - Live One Care - Live Mesh

  • Marked as answer by Evan - Live Mesh Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:47 PM
  • Unmarked as answer by vic1252 Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:22 PM
  • Marked as answer by Evan - Live Mesh Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:13 PM
  • Unmarked as answer by vic1252 Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:41 PM
  • Marked as answer by Evan - Live Mesh Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:08 PM

  Tuesday, May 26, 2009 3:47 PM

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  I'm sorry to tell you that Live Mesh can most certainly delete files from a computer on which it is not installed - in fact, I can now confirm that it has deleted them from two of my computers on which it was not installed, but which were connected by Beinsync. (One of which had run beinsync successfully and the other, running Vista instead of XP, had never synce successfully with Beinsync.)!
  
  Not only that, I have looked in all the recycle bins. In one of the computers I can find a few of the folders which have been deleted - but they are all empty (0kb). In the rest, I can't find any folders which have been deleted today.
  
  On the few relevant folders I can find in the recycle bin, I have right-clicked and chosen 'Restore previous version' - but the previous version, whilst looking fuller than the empty folder, contains about 95% Beinsync stub files and Live Mesh Placeholder files - none of which can be opened. There are a very few intact files in the folders.
  
  I have checked out the Beinsync Deleted items folders. In most cases, they are emtpy. In one case, on one of the computers without Live Mesh installed, I found hundreds of files - but I couldn't identify a single file from today's deletions - they were all genuine deletion from an earlier date.
  
  I am at a complete loss to suggest what caused the wholesale deletions in the first place, because in the few hours that Live Mesh was running, I didn't actually use any of the computers. The obvious secondary scenario is that, once Live mesh had deleted/cleaned out the folders on computer, BeinSync must have replicated the file deletions to the other two comuters, before anyone realised what was happening.
  
  I read very carefully beforehand your false claim that deleted files could be recovered from the recycle bin. Likewise Beinsync!
  
  I have run a preliminary scan with file recovery software - and it finds only those folders and files which still remain!
  
  This mass data loss could have very serious consequences and I await your response as to how to recover the files
  

  Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:48 PM
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  Thanks for the additional information.  We have received your bug submission http://connect.microsoft.com/LiveMesh/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=458669.  Can you please generate Live Mesh logs and attach those logs to your bug submission - the logs are critical in determining the sequence of events and status of the files.  If Live Mesh deleted any files, those files will be immediately placed in the Recycle Bin, since Live Mesh is installed on only one of your computers Live Mesh will place the files in that specific machine's Recycle Bin. 
  
  While we investigate your logs, we highly recommend you contact Beinsync regarding the file deletions on the other machines.  Since Live Mesh is not installed on those machines it could not have deleted the files on those machines and thus wouldn't have put them in the Recycle Bin.  Please contact Beinsync for file recovery steps on those additional machines.
  
  Also, since Live Mesh is installed only on one machine, the only place it would sync to is the Live Desktop.  Did you possibly, accidently delete the files on your Live Desktop?  If not, then Mesh would make any syncing/deleting actions.  Since the files are gone from all the machines that Beinsync is installed upon, please ask Beinsync if there are known compatibility issues with simultaneously running mutiple sync software. 
  
  
  

  Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:12 PM
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  I am trying to send the log - but it has had several attempts to upload and hasn't completed yet - 35.7MB!
  
  I have already contacted Beinsync and am awaiting reply - without too much optimism. I suppose you realise that Beinsync are closing their server down on 31st May - permanently! Hence the reason everyone is looking for a replacement.
  
  Live Mesh is actually installed on 3 of my computers now (but switched off!!!). I initially installed it on 2 of them (that's why they were syncing/deleting to each other) and put it on the third before realising what was happening. The 4th has not had it installed - but has still lost its folders. On the two 'original' installations, the recycle bin on one shows a few of the missing folders/files - but all empty, and the other doesn't even have empty folders.
  
  I'm afraid to even switch Live Mesh on to look at my Live mesh desktop, but when I looked this morning I think the only files in the folders were placeholders.
  
  I fully expected that your software would stop the installation if it detected incompatible software and I was reluctant to uninstall Beinsync first in case Live Mesh was not successful!

  Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:39 PM
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  You don't need to turn Live Mesh on to go to your Live Desktop. You can access your Live Desktop from any computer by signing in at https://www.mesh.com/welcome/default.aspx

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  Jim - MVP Windows Live - Forum Moderator - Live One Care - Live Mesh

  • Marked as answer by Evan - Live Mesh Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:11 AM
  • Unmarked as answer by vic1252 Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:54 AM

  Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:47 PM

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  Thanks for the advice - but in practice, when I click the above link and click 'Sign In', every time I click 'Agree' to the terms etc, the window just 'jumps' and remains on the same page! So this bit of Live Mesh doesn't seem to be working any better than the rest!

  Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:59 PM
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  Thanks for your patience, we have received and reviewed your logs.  Several folders appear intact, the issue seems limited to 'FLT Database'.  The logs suggest that the Beinsync folder was place inside a Live Mesh folder, we see several .BIS placeholders.  For future reference, please note, a sync folder inside a sync folder is not a supported scenario and is not recommended with any sync product (for example Live Mesh will not support a Mesh folder inside a Mesh folder). 
  
  It appears approximately 1/2 of the contents of that folder were deleted by Beinsync and Mesh has replicated that sync, if the data is not in the Recycle Bin then it is lost.  However, the other half of the files appear to be in the Live Mesh holding area.  We are unfamiliar with the Beinsync conflict resolution system, so to retrieve the holding area files we recommend turning off Beinsync and turning on Live Mesh, then allow Mesh to complete syncing and use the Mesh conflict resolution as needed.  Once as many files as possible are recovered we recommend then going to the Beinsync holding area and manually restoring files, if any.  When following the procedure above do not have Live Mesh and Beinsync running simultaneously. 

  • Marked as answer by Evan - Live Mesh Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:11 AM
  • Unmarked as answer by vic1252 Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:31 AM

  Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:11 AM
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  Oh dear! This isn't exactly good news, because so far my investigations had largely been limited to the folder 'Confidential PC' - in which most files seem to have been deleted. I had not even had time to check FLT Database other than in a cursory fashion.
  
  If you can't even see that anything has happened to 'Confidential PC', then it is even more worrying!
  
  Please can you re-open the enquiry and take another look?
  
  Also, I notice that when I open my Live Desktop and open the Confidential PC folder, there seem to be two copies of most of the remaining 'skeleton/ghost' folders inside it. Why?
  
  I appreciate that if I ever dare to switch Live Mesh on again I must keep Beinsuync switched off - but please explain how Live Mesh may be able to rescue the situation when all four computers are displaying the same scenario. To what will Live mesh sync, when the folders are empty or missing anyway?
  
  I may not be able to respond much during today as I have other work on hand - but please don't take my silence as a sign of resolution of the problem!
  
  One further point - I can't answer technically for the way Beinsync operates, other than to point out that there is no indication that Beinsync creates a 'separate' 'Beinsync folder' to match the folders on the computer. The only indication that a folder is synced is that its icon changes. There is no 'apparent to the user' equivalent of the Live Mesh Desktop folders. The only separate folders created are ones containing 'Beinsync File deletions' and 'Beinsync Conflicts', so I am not sure how valid your observation is that a'The logs suggest that the Beinsync folder was place inside a Live Mesh folder'. The fact that you can see several Beinsync placeholders or 'stub files' means nothing, because these were regularly littered through the folders anyway. (I never claimed Beinsync was perfect - when it worked well it worked well, but there were often periods when it didn't sync correctly, for various reasons, and hence the large number of stub files - which could usually be synced manually if I needed to access them. So the appearance of stub files in the folders is 'normal' and pre-exists Live Mesh.)

  Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:41 AM
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  Thanks for the update.  The logs you provided indicate that there are several files that have been deleted, as previously mentioned, the logs indicate there are also several files that are in the holding area - it is likely those files are in the holding area.  There is not a guarantee that syncing will recover some of the deleted files, but there is the possibility.  (Please backup the files you do have before attempting the sync). 
  
  The appearance of the .BIS (Beinsync) stubs in your Live Mesh logs indicate the problem was caused by attempting to simultaneously use multiple sync programs on the same files.  A file that is being synced by one program should not be simulatenously synced by another sync program, it can cause fatal embraces and volatile situations, such as your experiencing.  If you have any files (or folders) being synced by Beinsync, please do not attempt to simultaneously sync those same files (or folders) with another sync program (including Live Mesh). 
  
  We'll continue to assist you through your bug submission on Connect  (http://connect.microsoft.com/LiveMesh/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=458669). Please use the bug submission for future correspondence as the original question of what caused the files deletions has been answered: 'An unsupported scenario of simultaneously using multiple sync products on the same files caused Beinsync to delete the files'.

  • Marked as answer by Evan - Live Mesh Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:08 PM

  Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:08 PM
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  I appreciate that if I ever dare to switch Live Mesh on again I must keep Beinsuync switched off - but please explain how Live Mesh may be able to rescue the situation when all four computers are displaying the same scenario. To what will Live mesh sync, when the folders are empty or missing anyway?
  
  

  
  Any computer that was being synchronized by your other sync software would have replicated whatever happened on one computer. If Live Mesh and the other software were in conflict on a single PC, causing files on that PC to be deleted, then those deletions would have been replicated by your other sync software, not Live Mesh, though Live Mesh may certainly have been involved in the original deletion.
  *If* the files Evan sees in the "holding area" are pending replication by Live Mesh, it is possible that the files can be recovered from the holding area, is my assumption.
  
  I do want to add that I'm sorry that you appear to have lost data. Evan and the Live Mesh team will certainly do what they can to help. My advice for any future use of Live Mesh beta is that you *always* have a secure backup of the data that you are trying to sync. That means an external copy of the data in another location - an external drive, a backup device, or even just another folder that is not being synchronized by any other software automatically or manually. I once lost data using a manual sync program because I wasn't paying attention - nothing to do with Live Mesh, but I was relying on the sync process to do a backup. I failed to realize that the deletion of files from the source would be replicated when I manually initiated the sync - my backup was now missing the same files.
  
  -steve

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  Microsoft MVP Windows Live / Windows Live OneCare & Live Mesh Forum Moderator

  Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:50 PM

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  Thanks for your answer.
  
  Once the first file in a chain has been deleted, I understand exactly how the replication has occurred, with Beinsync replicating across all computers.
  
  What I don't understand is why Live Mesh deleted any files in in the first place, to enable Beinsync to replicate the deletion!
  
  Bear in mind, it happened to be aroud 2.30am that I installed Live Mesh on two computers - and I then went to bed. I made no changes to any of the files on any of the computers between that time and the realisation several hours later that lots of files were missing. I certainly didn't delete anything for Live Mesh or Beinsync to replicate. As I understand it, Live Mesh is marketed for replication - not deletion.  Please will someone explain to me how the first file in the chain came to be deleted?
  
  One thing I am sure of is that Beinsync can't be blamed for deleting the first file in each chain - otherwise they would have been deleted long ago. Remember, we are not talking about the odd file here - in this case there are thousands of 'first files' which must have been deleted to enable the consequent replication.

  As luck would have it, my independent backup suffered a power supply failure and was not up to date!

  Monday, June 1, 2009 7:55 AM
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  Thanks for your answer.
  
  Once the first file in a chain has been deleted, I understand exactly how the replication has occurred, with Beinsync replicating across all computers.
  
  What I don't understand is why Live Mesh deleted any files in in the first place, to enable Beinsync to replicate the deletion!
  
  Bear in mind, it happened to be aroud 2.30am that I installed Live Mesh on two computers - and I then went to bed. I made no changes to any of the files on any of the computers between that time and the realisation several hours later that lots of files were missing. I certainly didn't delete anything for Live Mesh or Beinsync to replicate. As I understand it, Live Mesh is marketed for replication - not deletion.  Please will someone explain to me how the first file in the chain came to be deleted?
  
  One thing I am sure of is that Beinsync can't be blamed for deleting the first file in each chain - otherwise they would have been deleted long ago. Remember, we are not talking about the odd file here - in this case there are thousands of 'first files' which must have been deleted to enable the consequent replication.

  As luck would have it, my independent backup suffered a power supply failure and was not up to date!

  
  Conflict.
  
  The problem was caused by the fact that there were two programs watching the files within the same location. As one program "touched" the file, the other thought it was deleted, so took action. Since that program saw the file as deleted, then that action was likely replicated back to the source machine as the file was released by the other program. That's speculation on my part, but is the most likely explanation.
  
  You cannot be certain that Beinsync did not start the deletion process. The bottom line is that two sync programs were active within the same locations and all bets are off as to what the file system and the sync programs will do in that scenario. As Evan noted earlier in the thread, Live Mesh will absolutely prevent you from setting up a sync relationship for a sub-folder within a branch where a higher level folder is already in a defined Live Mesh Sync relationship exactly due to this issue. Even with the single sync engine of Live Mesh, having two defined relationships for the same files can lead to disastrous results as you, unfortunately, have found.
  
  -steve

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  Microsoft MVP Windows Live / Windows Live OneCare & Live Mesh Forum Moderator

  Monday, June 1, 2009 12:19 PM

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