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Where is all that data!?! ... related to ntbackup problem. RRS feed

  • Question

  • I have 2 disks on my WHS, an 80GB primary and a 500GB secondary.  Since this is a play server, and the data is only sample data, I am not worried about the limitations with the smaller primary.

    On my WHS , in the standard share (\\server\videos) Folder Duplication is turned off for this folder

    The directory structure looks like this

    \\server\videos\movies\movie1.avi (173MB)

    \\server\videos\TV\earl\earl1.avi

    \\server\videos\TV\earl\earl2.avi

    \\server\videos\TV\earl\earl3.avi

    and so on to earl25.avi

    When I browse to \\server (or map a drive to \\server\videos) on my Vista Ultimate 32 box, I see some strange things

    Under properties for the movies folder  I see a size of 173 MB and size on disk of 173

    This seems to be correct as there is only a single 173MB file in there

    Under properties for the TV folder  I see a size of 3.91GB and size on disk of 92KB

    There is about 4 GB of files in the \tv\earl folder, so the first part makes sense, but for the second part of 96KB ... huh?  has WHS maybe moved the data onto the secondary disk and the 96KB is the tombstones we were told about before?  If so .. this is gonna confuse the heck out of the target non techie market. Also why did it treat them differently..... the movie file was copied there most recently .. maybe later it will get the same treatment???

     

    I decided to look at this from the WHS perspective so I RDP to \\server

    start run \\server\videos has me looking at the same share, but this time from the WHS.  Everything is exactly the same as it was from a remote client.  I even tried \\localhost\videos\\ipaddress\videos, a drive mapped to \\server\videos and even a subst drive pointing to the previously mentioned maped network drive.  It was always the same.

    OK fine... lets ignore access via share and lets see if I can find the data on the C and D drives of the WHS

    C:\fs\C\DE\shares\Videos contained my files, but the behaviour was not the same as above.  Here the file size and size on disk was equal for both TV and for Movies

    interestingly C:\fs\C happens to be my secondary drive, mounted as a subdirectory I think.  this would seem to indicate that all these files were in fact, on the secondary.  But if this were true .. they why are the TV and the Movies folders acting differently ....

    Bah I am so confused :/

     

    Other than the "confusion factor" the reason that this is interesting to me is because I think that this is related to the problem with backing up anything on WHS.

     On my DLT attached to the WHS, Using NTbackup I cannot backup data from something like \\server\share ... If I try I only get a small amount of data (tombstones I am guessing)  We have been warned not to backup from places like c:\ or d:\ so I was hoping it would work from the share.

    PS I have ntbacked up "C:\fs\C\DE\shares\Videos" and all "seemed" to go correctly.  I have not tried a restore.  But we are warned this is not safe.

    I have yet to find anything that works, other than the suggested, "copy it to a non WHS HDD and back it up from there"

     

     

     

     

     

    Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:39 AM

Answers

  • Mervin,

    You are correct that the size differences are related to the tombstones, I believe. If you have three or more drives connected to your WHS, then Drive Extender tries to push all files off onto secondary drives, leaving only tombstones behind. Thus the results you saw when you looked at the file system for D: in Explorer. The actual secondary drives are mounted under C:\FS as you saw, and those show the correct information for file sizes and size on disk.

    I think it's a bug in Drive Extender, so you should report it on Connect. I don't know that it will be corrected for version 1, though, as the file and folder sizes are probably being managed at a lower level (in the OS) than Drive Extender.
    Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:36 PM
    Moderator
  • I think you misunderstand. The fact that accessing the properties for a file or folder and seeing size and size on disk so wildly different is a bug. Though it looks like someone else reported it on Connect.
    Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:48 AM
    Moderator

All replies

  • Mervin,

    You gave a great deal of information and asked several questions.  My recommendation for you is to read through the documentation and re-install WHS as it seems you have made several mistakes.  You should also make your 500GB drive your primary (the documentation will also tell you this) drive.  The documentation also advises against using NT Backup.  So take another look through the documentation, re-install WHS and you should be a happy camper!

    pete

    Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:34 PM
  • Mervin,

    You are correct that the size differences are related to the tombstones, I believe. If you have three or more drives connected to your WHS, then Drive Extender tries to push all files off onto secondary drives, leaving only tombstones behind. Thus the results you saw when you looked at the file system for D: in Explorer. The actual secondary drives are mounted under C:\FS as you saw, and those show the correct information for file sizes and size on disk.

    I think it's a bug in Drive Extender, so you should report it on Connect. I don't know that it will be corrected for version 1, though, as the file and folder sizes are probably being managed at a lower level (in the OS) than Drive Extender.
    Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:36 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi Peter,

    Thanks for the response!  I "think" I am aware of the limitations of using the 80 as the primary, and they do not bother me as I am not planning on putting anywhere near that much data on my WHS in the forseeable future.  I don't think it is a mistake as much as a "limiting factor"  If it has contributed to weirdness I have seen in my system, I would like to understand how, if possible. 

    Plus part of the point in participating in these things is to poke and prod around and have some fun I think :)

    I have read the disclaimer about issues with ntbackup in the Release Documentation for Windows Home Server Beta 2, but there were no details.  It only said that it does not backup the shared folders correctly... that it appears to , but a restore may corrupt data.  It does not indicate if the NTbackup was run locally or across a network.  nor did it say anything about backing up files directly from the C and D drive.  Others here have asked about what may and may not work, and since I happen to have a tape drive locally on the system I am using to play with WHS I decided to try and see what happens.  My results were not as described in the documentation that you refered to, so I wrote them up hoping that others might share their results as well.  For instance, when I backed up a share, at no point did it appear to work correctly.

    I intend to locate and try other backup programs and see how they compare to NT backup

    I wish that I had another Tape drive on another system that I could perform a network remote backup of a WHS share.  If that failed (and I would not be surprised if it did) then I would be really concerned!!!  I can see this being an unacceptable problem.  Using NTbackup, remotely I can reliably backup data from any sort of windows system and even many non windows systems if they support SMB etc.

     

    Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:37 AM
  • Some time last night, Drive Extender (I think) moved the file in the \\server\videos\server share to the secondary (I think.)  Now, it is consistant and the "weirdness" is gone.  I guess I just needed to be a little more patient.

    So now it is the tape backup thing that I need to play with and learn a bit more on. 

     

     

     

     

    Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:45 AM
  • I think you misunderstand. The fact that accessing the properties for a file or folder and seeing size and size on disk so wildly different is a bug. Though it looks like someone else reported it on Connect.
    Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:48 AM
    Moderator
  • I accept this as an answer, and I have validated your quoted connect issue, thank you.

     

    Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:57 AM