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  • This decision was, as far as I can tell, made some time ago, and isn't related to the removal of Drive Extender from Vail.

    And can folks please learn to mark discussion threads as discussion threads?


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 1:29 PM
    Moderator
  • RE:  And can folks please learn to mark discussion threads as discussion threads?
     
    How do I do that with the NNTP Bridge?

    --
    _________________
     
    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _________________

    This decision was, as far as I can tell, made some time ago, and isn't related to the removal of Drive Extender from Vail.

    And can folks please learn to mark discussion threads as discussion threads?


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)

    BullDawg
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 1:53 PM
  • I don't use the bridge because it doesn't meet my needs for a variety of reasons, and there's never been any real interest in changing it so it will (there aren't a lot of moderators). Since as far as I know Microsoft isn't involved with it any more (other than by allowing the required back-end access), perhaps you should ask the folks who maintain it that question.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 2:06 PM
    Moderator
  • There's no way to do it for the bridge, so you're not likely going to
    find a bridge user marking a thread as a discussion.

    As far as the bridge goes, Microsoft forum developers have to maintain
    their side of the bridge and I haven't heard anything about shutting
    down the client side yet.  (but I do use Jochen's bridge..)


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 2:20 PM
  • I guess we (NNTP Bridge users) don't have the capability to mark as discussion.  Here is the answer from the Connect Web Page
     
    "We are delivering these NNTP Bridge applications to support the fundamental read and write capabilities only. "

    --
    _________________
     
    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _________________

    I don't use the bridge because it doesn't meet my needs for a variety of reasons, and there's never been any real interest in changing it so it will (there aren't a lot of moderators). Since as far as I know Microsoft isn't involved with it any more (other than by allowing the required back-end access), perhaps you should ask the folks who maintain it that question.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)

    BullDawg
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 2:20 PM
  • Oh, well. I guess it was wishful thinking.

    I won't be completely surprised if Microsoft decides to shut off the bridge with some future revision of the forum software. I know that when they were maintaining a version of the bridge (no matter how poorly it worked; you'd think that communities would be more important to them than they are :P) they said a couple of times that it was intended to be temporary.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 3:10 PM
    Moderator
  • Not related to the recent announcement by MS about DE... but HP likely knew it was in the works to possibly drop DE and just waited until the 'announcement' by MS to decide to go ahead with pulling out. That is my take anyway.

    Art (artfudd) Folden
    ------------------------------
    "Ken Warren [MVP]" wrote in message news:5b8a62f4-59a1-4936-8b3d-ff06aa31c1b3@communitybridge.codeplex.com...

    This decision was, as far as I can tell, made some time ago, and isn't related to the removal of Drive Extender from Vail.

    And can folks please learn to mark discussion threads as discussion threads?


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)


    Art Folden
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 10:51 PM
  • I've read the DE-removal was also announced a few weeks ago to a select number of non MS-workers..
    So I believe more in "well-organized-duet" than in a "coincidence".

    Not related to the recent announcement by MS about DE... but HP likely knew it was in the works to possibly drop DE and just waited until the 'announcement' by MS to decide to go ahead with pulling out. That is my take anyway.

    Art (artfudd) Folden
    ------------------------------
    "Ken Warren [MVP]" wrote in message news:5b8a62f4-59a1-4936-8b3d-ff06aa31c1b3@communitybridge.codeplex.com...

    This decision was, as far as I can tell, made some time ago, and isn't related to the removal of Drive Extender from Vail.

    And can folks please learn to mark discussion threads as discussion threads?


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)


    Art Folden

    Have a nice day!
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 11:02 PM
  • > I won't be completely surprised if Microsoft decides to shut off the bridge
     
    Neither would I. It would be in line with the "drifting away from earlier "things" like tech beta's and ditto testers, NNTP etc , as much and as quick as they can.
    I wouldn't be surprised if they would kill the MVP-program, as we know it for a long time, also. They did it once already and this seems like a first step for a 2nd time (and now for final). See https://www.microsoftcommunitycontributor.com/logon.aspx . We just entered the first things of a complete new era I suppose.
     
     

    Oh, well. I guess it was wishful thinking.

    I won't be completely surprised if Microsoft decides to shut off the bridge with some future revision of the forum software. I know that when they were maintaining a version of the bridge (no matter how poorly it worked; you'd think that communities would be more important to them than they are :P) they said a couple of times that it was intended to be temporary.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)

    Have a nice day!
    Wednesday, December 1, 2010 11:09 PM
  •  
    HP pulls out of WHS market.>
     
    And here's Ed Bott's solution, which I like better than anything Microsoft
    has come up with. BTW, Ed seems to intimate that removal of DE was partially
    why HP pulled out of the WHS market.
     
     
    --
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Thursday, December 2, 2010 1:16 AM
  • "Give every Home Server installation a dedicated 50 or 100 GB of SkyDrive storage and use it as a free cloud-based backup service to help overcome the loss of data duplication in Drive Extender."

    Really?  A whole 100 GB for data duplication..WOW.  Now I can enjoy my 3.5 ripped blu-ray films forever without worry.

     

    Thursday, December 2, 2010 1:40 AM
  • This decision was, as far as I can tell, made some time ago, and isn't related to the removal of Drive Extender from Vail.


    The removal of Drive Extender from Vail, on the other hand, may well have been related to HP punting on WHS. To the extent the decision to abandon DE was a business case failure, the loss of the single most important OEM can't have helped the case for investing even one more dollar on customers that are, apparently, too few to be relevant.

    I can't overemphasize how familiar this all seems to one of the former MS Money MVPs.

    Thursday, December 2, 2010 2:31 AM
  • <Really?  A whole 100 GB for data duplication..WOW.  Now I can enjoy my 3.5
    ripped blu-ray films forever without worry.>
     
    I tend to stay out of the clouds! Heckuva data fall iffen it don't work!
     
    I took Ed's article as a whole; I didn't pick and choose what I wanted to
    jump up and down on.
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Thursday, December 2, 2010 1:00 PM
  • I really can't say I'm surprised at all by this, and to be honest I'm surprised by the people who are surprised.  I started looking into WHS about a month ago, as I needed a new geeky project to work on. (I was certainly aware of WHS for years but never invested any time researching it)  The thing is, after reading everything I could find on WHS (including forums like this), I came away with this odd feeling that this was a dead-end product.  Not because it isn't cool mind you, but because it seemed very stagnant.  Vail has been in beta forever, and no recent news or buzz from Microsoft.  I visited the new Microsoft store (yes they exist) at the Mall of America a few weeks back and asked about WHS.  What better place to showcase the technology and the story of WHS than a Microsoft store!  Surely they could easily weave the WHS story into our digital life right?  I would be wrong.  Not only did they not sell it, I only found 1 employee in the store who had even heard of it.  

    That was really the watershed moment for me, the point at which I realized why something seemed fishy about WHS.  Answer:  who the ____ is the target market for this product?  Before you answer "consumers you dope!", just think about it for a minute.  Other than us geeks, or our family members that we've pushed WHS on, who in the general public buys WHS?  I would argue virtually no one does.  Most people still don't backup their data at all (even those who are relatively tech savvy), and the ones who do likely either: manually backup stuff to DVD's or an external drive, use a cloud-storage solution like Mozy, Crashplan, etc, or they use a NAS-in-a-box like Drobo.  

    So again, if you take away the geeks/enthusiasts/hobbyists, how many WHS boxes do you think HP really sold?  

     

    PS:  Dick Watson!  I thought you sounded familiar!  I recall reading tons of your posts back in the MS Money forums.  I used Money since 2000, and watched it slowly deteriorate over the years.  :(   I've since moved on to MoneyDance, how about you?  

    Thursday, December 2, 2010 2:44 PM
  • That was really the watershed moment for me, the point at which I realized why something seemed fishy about WHS.  Answer:  who the ____ is the target market for this product?  Before you answer "consumers you dope!", just think about it for a minute.  Other than us geeks, or our family members that we've pushed WHS on, who in the general public buys WHS?  I would argue virtually no one does.  Most people still don't backup their data at all (even those who are relatively tech savvy), and the ones who do likely either: manually backup stuff to DVD's or an external drive, use a cloud-storage solution like Mozy, Crashplan, etc, or they use a NAS-in-a-box like Drobo.  

    So again, if you take away the geeks/enthusiasts/hobbyists, how many WHS boxes do you think HP really sold?

    I suggested in another thread last week that they may go the way of a smaller WHS Vail box with cloud to substitute duplication (not that it would suit my requirements!) - it went down like a lead balloon - because it doesn't fit with most of our requirements - but now the tech bloggers are making the exact same suggestions!

    You've hit the nail on the head about the target market - nobody seems to have articulated what it is/who they are.  In my mind people who've adopted WHS are fairly knowledgeable to even know they need a NAS or home server in the first place - they could probably work out RAID and full blown server solutions for themselves, but choose not to because of the simplicity and flexibility of WHS.   Regardless of our respective useage, the vast majority of posters here fall into the enthusiast category.  

    But the average guy in the street wouldn't look further than a portable USB drive for their backups, convincing them to jump from a USB drive to WHS or NAS would be a hard sell.  So _if_ MS steer Vail to be truly targetted at the average user - hitting a larger market in the process - then a small USB sized unit with some cloud storage may very well fit the bill for them.

    What that means is that _if_ they do go down that direction, WHS as we know it is dead and we are not the target audience for the new product.

    Thursday, December 2, 2010 5:14 PM
  • I really can't say I'm surprised at all by this, and to be honest I'm surprised by the people who are surprised. ... I visited the new Microsoft store (yes they exist) at the Mall of America a few weeks back and asked about WHS.  What better place to showcase the technology and the story of WHS than a Microsoft store!  Surely they could easily weave the WHS story into our digital life right?  I would be wrong.  Not only did they not sell it, I only found 1 employee in the store who had even heard of it.  

    ...

    PS:  Dick Watson!  I thought you sounded familiar!  I recall reading tons of your posts back in the MS Money forums.  I used Money since 2000, and watched it slowly deteriorate over the years.  :(   I've since moved on to MoneyDance, how about you?  

    I had the exact same thought when I had the exact same experience in a Microsoft store here in Colorado. They had lots of Microsoft Surface [four letter word for stuff that begins with c and ends with p] (something that isn't even a product to be bought) and ZIPPO on WHS. Kinda like how they drove Money into the ditch. You could see it coming for a LONG TIME. The two or three folks at Microsoft who "get it" about a given product get reassigned and the downhill slide is just inexorable. The entire rest of the behemoth just kills these things through benign (at best) neglect. Kinda like a elephant accidentally sitting on its baby. Living proof that really smart people can be just collectively incredibly clueless. They are mostly driven theese days by (insert here) envy. Google and Apple make two good inserts. But lots of other things work too.

    (Added aside: remember when Microsoft Money became MSN Money? Beginning of the end. How about when the Windows Home Server Team became the Windows Home and Small Business Server Team?)

    I'm riding Money right down the tube. Look around from time to time for alternatives. They are found wanting. So I stick with Money.

    • Edited by Dick Watson Friday, December 3, 2010 2:03 AM clarification
    Friday, December 3, 2010 2:01 AM
  • I tend to stay out of the clouds! Heckuva data fall iffen it don't work!
     
    I took Ed's article as a whole; I didn't pick and choose what I wanted to
    jump up and down on.
    Nancy, please take my sarcasm as just that.  Watching the "cloud" develop is a little like watching an accident about to happen.  On one hand the cloud people are saying this is the answer, while, we have the US politicians allowing the internet providers (monopolies) to cap bandwidth.  Sorting like mixing oil and water.  Not going to happen.  So the cloud is looking pretty dark at least in this country.
    Friday, December 3, 2010 3:06 AM
  • Here in Germany it is somewhat similar.

    In larger cities you have often unlimited bandwidth, while in villages around or smaller towns people still rely on modems and similar devices to get  into the Internet independent from what politicians talk and promise.

    Also the trust (and even the laws) are not ideal to put sensitive data to somewhere in the "cloud".

    The big failure is, that big companies to fast forget the reality of theit customers over all the cloud hype or ignore the private customers at all instead of balancing it. And here it is, where companies like Apple win, because the recognize and use the potential of such private customers.

    Imagine a Windows Home Server with all what a customer wants: full Media Center Capability, unlimited local storage, protection of PC data (heck, support IPhones, Phone 7 etc), uncomplicated recovery, paired with great design, high quality and lesser limitations (i.e. headless limitation of current WHS does nothing good for a home user, if it comes to the need of troubleshooting). On top the marketing, which the current WHS version hardly lacked, we have already a community of enthusiasts, which can support such a WHS. I really think, with the right marketing this could be sold for good money. And this stuff must be available in the market, for sure. Presentable also in a retail market (what a black box without video is not), deliverable - how long was HP unable to deliver in Europe? I personally don't like Apple, but they show how to pleasure and motivate the private customer (who is sometimes also the corporate decision maker).

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Friday, December 3, 2010 2:21 PM
    Moderator
  • This decision was, as far as I can tell, made some time ago, and isn't related to the removal of Drive Extender from Vail.

     


    Perhaps HP started to think about this decision when Vail DE technology was revealed? For me it was obvious that DE v2 was flawed from the beginning. I tried to show it here, in forums and MS connect.
    DE v2 was not an adequate replacement for DE v1. That was regardless whether Microsoft could or could not make DE v2 work. I guess HP saw that also, it was very clear.
    Interesting, what is MS WHS management doing now, do they get their bonuses for burying (what was an) excellent product?

    Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:30 AM
  • do they get their bonuses for burying (what was an) excellent product?


    If it's not a profitable product they do.
    Sunday, December 5, 2010 2:29 PM

  • If it's not a profitable product they do.
    Regardless. A decision was made to allocate many men-years of resources to develop a technology that was flawed from the beginning. These resources are now wasted. Doesn't matter whether the product would be profitable or not. Major management failure.
    Sunday, December 12, 2010 2:56 AM
  • My feeling, the intention to eliminate hardware RAID ran pretty half-assed. A small group created on Drive Extender for a product (WHS), the importance of which is just barely measurable. But I think Microsoft has gained somewhat important technical knowledge with this failure. If Microsoft would have completely lost the ambition to replace hardware RAID, with a new file system that would be really bad news. The cloud marketing is generally much too soon because the bandwidths are widely still far too low. Therefore, local storage, and thus distributed file systems in the foreseeable will remain important.
    Sunday, December 12, 2010 1:44 PM
  • You asked if they got bonuses from burying a product.

    Whether MS management gets rewarded for spending lots of development dollars building half-baked ____ that goes nowhere in the marketplace or, worse, fails and is abandoned before the development is complete but long after it is started, is another question. In that vain, DEv2 is one of a LONG LINE of such epic fails at Microsoft. Bob. Kin. WinFS. To name very few. Were I a MSFT shareholder, I'd be somewhat dismayed at the amount of money they've poured down ratholes only to end up with nothing but public embarassment and an appearance of incapability to show for it. This episode adds another example that "Next Gen FS" is on the list of things they apparently don't have the talent to do.

    Of course, even developing WHS in the first place is probably not looking like a great business idea about now, regadless of DE.

    Sunday, December 12, 2010 5:38 PM
  • <A decision was made to allocate many men-years of resources to develop a
    technology that was flawed from the beginning. These resources are now
    wasted. Doesn't matter whether the product would be profitable or not. Major
    management failure.>
     
    I've been on a number of Microsoft betas that I didn't fully understand, and
    in the end, turned out less than useful. However, I have to say, "Nothing
    ventured, nothing gained." If we all stick our heads in the sand and don't
    take a chance on that 'one great idea', where would we be? Certainly not
    here discussing the demise of an idea that hasn't made it to the top of the
    heap yet.
     
    Methinks the time for 100% of operating systems to be 64 bit , no matter if
    they're for consumers, developers, networkers, servers, etc., just hasn't
    come yet. If it were me, I'd go back to the 32 bit drawing board and figure
    out where I'd gone wrong in porting to 64 bit. After all, WHS v1 has worked
    quite well, even to backing up 64 bit systems.
     
    Will Microsoft listen to me? I have no delusions of grandeur such as that! I
    do believe, though, that if Microsoft doesn't take some of the excellent
    suggestions and comments from its beta testers to heart, it will be their
    loss. After all, those of us who *are* developers outnumber the Vail Team by
    quite a large number.
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Sunday, December 12, 2010 6:03 PM
  • On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:03:06 +0000, Nancy Ward wrote:

    Methinks the time for 100% of operating systems to be 64 bit , no matter if they're for consumers, developers, networkers, servers, etc., just hasn't come yet. If it were me, I'd go back to the 32 bit drawing board and figure out where I'd gone wrong in porting to 64 bit. After all, WHS v1 has worked quite well, even to backing up 64 bit systems.

    Sorry but this simply makes no sense at all. None of the Vail issues have
    anything at all to do with it being x64 as opposed to x86 and OEMs aren't
    even making x86 hardware any longer. It makes no sense whatsoever to go
    back to x86. As far as backing up x64 systems, its really nothing much more
    than a file copy over the wire so that argument also makes no sense.
    Where exactly has Microsoft "gone wrong" with x64 development?


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca

    Monday, December 13, 2010 7:48 AM
  • "Where exactly has Microsoft "gone wrong" with x64 development?"
     
    DEV2 is where.

    --
    _________________
     
    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _________________

    BullDawg
    Monday, December 13, 2010 8:58 AM
  • On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:58:31 +0000, BullDawg wrote:

    "Where exactly has Microsoft "gone wrong" with x64 development?"
    ?
    DEV2 is where.

    Which was a fundamental change to DE and has little or nothing to do with
    x86 versus x64.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca

    Monday, December 13, 2010 1:53 PM
  • DEv1 is x86, DEv2 is x64.  Seems to me that Dev2 is part of the x64 development!  Has a lot to do with it. 
     
    Methinks thou canst not seeth the forest for the trees. 
     
    --
    _________________
     
    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _________________

    On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:58:31 +0000, BullDawg wrote:

    "Where exactly has Microsoft "gone wrong" with x64 development?"
    ?
    DEV2 is where.

    Which was a fundamental change to DE and has little or nothing to do with
    x86 versus x64.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca


    BullDawg
    Monday, December 13, 2010 3:26 PM
  • DEv1 is x86, DEv2 is x64.  Seems to me that Dev2 is part of the x64 development! Has a lot to do with it.

    In reality, no. If it were purely a matter of x86 vs x64 development, a couple of months for recompiling, testing, fixing bugs and the like would probably have been sufficient. Call it 4 months, given that nothing happens quickly at Microsoft. :)

    No, as far as I can tell DE was rewritten for reasons having little to do with x86 vs. x64. The base operating system is no longer Windows Server 2003 (XP era), it's Windows Server 2008 R2 (Windows 7), with a very different internal security architecture, various updates to internal APIS, changes to NTFS, etc. Long story short, Drive Extender V1 probably can't work on Windows Server 2008 R2 without a complete rewrite. In addition, there were a variety of issues with DE V1 which affected users (in some cases only a few, in some cases many), and which would have precluded it's use in a business version (i.e. SBS Essentials 2011, SS Essentials 2011). Probably some of those app-compat issues are architectural, and (again) can't be fixed short of re-engineering Drive Extender.


    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Monday, December 13, 2010 4:04 PM
    Moderator
  • On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 15:26:16 +0000, BullDawg wrote:

    DEv1 is x86, DEv2 is x64.? Seems to me that Dev2 is part of the x64 development!? Has a lot to do with it.?
    ?
    Methinks thou canst not seeth the forest for the trees.

    I can see the forest for the trees. You, on the other hand seem to have a
    problem with basic logic.

    DEV2 as originally shipped with the first release of Vail was on an x64 OS.
    DEV2 as shipped with the second release of Vail was also on an x64 OS, yet
    the two were completely incompatible. You're suffering from a common
    logical inconsistency.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca

    Monday, December 13, 2010 4:53 PM
  • "BullDawg" wrote in message
    news:cd849676-190b-4252-9bee-98a690447cb7@communitybridge.codeplex.com...
     DEv1 is x86, DEv2 is x64.  Seems to me that Dev2 is part of the x64
    development!  Has a lot to do with it.
     
    Methinks thou canst not seeth the forest for the trees.
     
    --
    _________________
     
    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _________________
     
    hehehehehe
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Monday, December 13, 2010 5:02 PM
  • LOL.. methinks Mr. A can't see the forest because he is one of the trees... :)

    Art (artfudd) Folden
    ------------------------------
    "Nancy Ward" wrote in message news:d70e2631-c3f0-4160-b3c4-e02d41e8d544@communitybridge.codeplex.com...
     "BullDawg" wrote in message
    news:cd849676-190b-4252-9bee-98a690447cb7@communitybridge.codeplex.com...
    DEv1 is x86, DEv2 is x64.  Seems to me that Dev2 is part of the x64
    development!  Has a lot to do with it.

    Methinks thou canst not seeth the forest for the trees.


    _______________

    BullDawg
    In God We Trust
    _______________

    hehehehehe

    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret


    Nancy Ward


    Art Folden
    Monday, December 13, 2010 8:22 PM
  • I don’t see the cloud as a viable option because a) the network pipes offered by AT&T in my area are slow as molasses, b) cloud storage is expensive, and c) I don’t trust cloud storage with my intellectual property and private information.
     
    "Nancy Ward" wrote in message news:6df5a988-8cde-4af6-9e57-c80d04e7212d...
    <Really?  A whole 100 GB for data duplication..WOW.  Now I can enjoy my 3.5
    ripped blu-ray films forever without worry.>
     
    I tend to stay out of the clouds! Heckuva data fall iffen it don't work!
     
    I took Ed's article as a whole; I didn't pick and choose what I wanted to
    jump up and down on.
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:18 PM
  • [I don’t see the cloud as a viable option because a) the network pipes
    offered by AT&T in my area are slow as molasses, b) cloud storage is
    expensive, and c) I don’t trust cloud storage with my intellectual property
    and private information.]
     
    Nor do I trust my stuff to a cloud. After all, cloudbursts happen quite
    frequently, and I wouldn't want my private data to be left in someone's
    pasture or on their roof.
     
    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 Beta Ferret
     
     

    Nancy Ward
    Friday, December 31, 2010 4:18 PM