Answered by:
News items in folder sidebars

Question
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Is it possible that I might get a news item in a folder sidebar telling me about a file being updated before the latest version of that file gets synced to my device?
Thanks
Jamie
P.S. "news item" and "folder sidebar" probably isn't the correct nomenclature here so plesae correct me where appropriate. thanks.
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomson- Edited by Jamie Thomson Tuesday, July 1, 2008 11:15 PM typo
Tuesday, July 1, 2008 11:14 PM
Answers
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Jamie,
Let me attempt to address some of your concerns. We acknowledge that the user experience surrounding sharing and simultaneous editing and conflict resolution isn’t the best it could be today (even for tech savvy users). (Note that none of what I write here should be construed as a promise of features to come.)
1. News event vs. file download. Yes, you’re right. It’s not clear that the news event is no indication of whether or not the file has actually sync’ed to this device.
2. Checking out files for update. This is one feature that many have proposed. However, it can get thorny once you ask other questions like: how long is the file checked out for? What happens if the person/device never checks the file back in (machine is wiped/stolen, etc.)? One could implement a timeout or override, but this seems complicated. What would avoid this whole mess is if there were some *visual indication* given to the users of the Live Mesh Folder that User A is editing this file *right now*, so you might want to hold off on your changes until she’s done. This is hard to do today. Once Mesh gets more broadly adopted, one could imagine applications interacting with the Mesh through the APIs to do exactly this sort of thing. In fact, you could take it one step further and have multiple users simultaneously editing and resolving… but I am getting ahead of myself.
3. Ghosted file while downloading update. Ah excellent. We actually implemented this exact behaviour at first: replace the file in the Live Mesh Folder with a ghost the instant you know that there is a newer/updated copy of the file in the Mesh somewhere. This would indicate to the user that something new is on its way, so you might want to wait for it. (I’m a huge proponent of this.) Unfortunately, we don’t yet have the UX to allow users to open up the older copy of the file to look at (or even edit), until the new one gets downloaded. This is critical because you don’t necessarily know when you’ll get to downloading that file (slow connection, or the machine with that file is offline, etc.). So we decided to go with the current experience for now (it’s less confusing as well, as your files don’t suddenly disappear). I would guess that in the future we allow this as an option for users to choose which type of experience they want.
4. Manually kicking off sync. Agree. And why not take this one step further? Sync this file (and only this file) right now. Sync this folder right now. Sync this folder the next time I’m online. Stop sync’ing this folder for 3h. Stop sync’ing for 5h. The possibilities are endless.
5. ‘Keep this item’ button greyed out in Conflict Resolution dialog. Ah yes. This is a bug. It has to do with how FeedSync deals with conflicts (which you can read about in the spec) and with how the Live Mesh client does conflict resolution. Suffice to say that it is annoying and we want it fixed too. :)
6. More info in Conflict Resolution dialog. Yes I remember that thread too.
I hope that offers some comfort. Your cries of frustration are not in vain.
Richard Chung [ Live Mesh ]- Marked as answer by Jamie Thomson Friday, July 11, 2008 3:01 PM
Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:24 PMAnswerer -
Jamie Thomson said:
Is it possible that I might get a news item in a folder sidebar telling me about a file being updated before the latest version of that file gets synced to my device?
Thanks
Jamie
P.S. "news item" and "folder sidebar" probably isn't the correct nomenclature here so plesae correct me where appropriate. thanks.
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomson
Yes, items in the News feed are processed and published by the server. The fact that a new item has been added to a folder is a property of the folder and not the individual device that you're viewing the folder on. Although it may not have sync'd to your device, Live Desktop and other devices in your Mesh (or in others' Mesh who have the folder shared) might already have the file.
Re: nomenclature - "Folder sidebar" is what we refer to as the Live Mesh Companion Pane.- Marked as answer by Viraj ModyEditor Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:04 PM
Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:04 PMAnswerer
All replies
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Hi Jamie,
Is your suggestion to have a notification before syncing in order to choose if you want to sync? Or something else? Perhaps you could describe what you're looking for in a little more detail, and then I can add it to our internal list of suggestions - though you may still want to put it in the Wish List for others to second, third, etc.
Thanks,
Ben.Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:21 PM -
Jamie Thomson said:
Is it possible that I might get a news item in a folder sidebar telling me about a file being updated before the latest version of that file gets synced to my device?
Thanks
Jamie
P.S. "news item" and "folder sidebar" probably isn't the correct nomenclature here so plesae correct me where appropriate. thanks.
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomson
Yes, items in the News feed are processed and published by the server. The fact that a new item has been added to a folder is a property of the folder and not the individual device that you're viewing the folder on. Although it may not have sync'd to your device, Live Desktop and other devices in your Mesh (or in others' Mesh who have the folder shared) might already have the file.
Re: nomenclature - "Folder sidebar" is what we refer to as the Live Mesh Companion Pane.- Marked as answer by Viraj ModyEditor Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:04 PM
Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:04 PMAnswerer -
Ben [Live Mesh] said:
Hi Jamie,
Is your suggestion to have a notification before syncing in order to choose if you want to sync? Or something else? Perhaps you could describe what you're looking for in a little more detail, and then I can add it to our internal list of suggestions - though you may still want to put it in the Wish List for others to second, third, etc.
Thanks,
Ben.
Hi Ben,
I've realised that my initial post in this thread was a little ambiguous. I wasn't asking for new functionality, I was asking if this was the way it worked right now.Based on what Viraj said it seems possible that a particular version of a file can be referenced in the folder sidebar and yet that version doesn't yet physically exist on the device. That's really really bad...joe public will assume that if the sidebar says a file has been updated then the version in question exists on their device. You and I know that the newsfeed is a different feed to the feed of folder contents but Joe public doesn't know that...and doesn't care.
Imagine the following scenario.
Joe and Jane are sharing a folder.- Jane makes a change to timetable.xls
- Joe sees a notification in the folder sidebar that Jane has made an update to timetable.xls but unbeknown to him that latest version of the file hasn't been synced to his laptop yet.
- Joe opens the old version of timetable.xls on his laptop.
- Jane's version of timetable.xls gets synced to Joe's machine (though not sure how this would happen if Joe has a lock on the file)
- Joe makes some changes and hits save.
- Joe's version of the file gets synced to Jane's device.
Unless I've misunderstood (hopefully you can confirm) this will mean that Joe overwrites Jane's changes but it doesn't result in a conflict being detected. Jane then opens her copy of timetable.xls and wonders where on earth her changes are. She rings Joe who says "I didn't remove them" and then they have a big argument cos each one blames the other for Jane's changes being lost.
This is part of a larger set of issues to be honest. I've been using a shared folder with my partner for a few weeks and have become increasingly frustrated with the experience. My partner is less forgiving than I am - she wants to completely stop using Mesh because it actually makes her angry using it.
I need to spend time writing up this experience more completely - I'll try and find time to do that later today.
Viraj, thanks for the reply.-Jamie
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomson- Edited by Jamie Thomson Thursday, July 3, 2008 4:16 PM edit
Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:21 AM -
Jamie, I think that Joe's editing of the file will cause a conflict back to Jane's copy. However, I do think that the alert should perhaps provide some indication of the status of the file sync, too.
-steve
Microsoft MVP Windows Live / Windows Live OneCare Forum ModeratorThursday, July 3, 2008 2:30 PMModerator -
Stephen Boots said:
Jamie, I think that Joe's editing of the file will cause a conflict back to Jane's copy. However, I do think that the alert should perhaps provide some indication of the status of the file sync, too.
-steve
Microsoft MVP Windows Live / Windows Live OneCare Forum Moderator
Stephen,
Perhaps you're right. I really need to get a grip of this Feedsync stuff.
Anyway, the overriding message that I want to convey is that the sharing of a folder between my partner and I hasn't been a great experience. We consider ourselves to be tech savvy people yet we are seeing things happen that we can't explain.
She swears (and I believe her) that she has made changes to files and those changes have just disappeared. I'm willing to accept that it might be the result of a very specific chain of events (including updates from both of us) that caused something to "slip through the net" but the main point is that this CAN happen and if it can happen to us and really p!ss us off (as it has) then its going to be worse when Joe Public get their hands on it.
I'd like to suggest some safety measures be put in place:
- If a notification in the folder sidebar states that an update to a file has occurred then there MUST be some sort of visual cue to the user that the file has (or has not yet) synced. Failing that, if the user tries to open a file that is not he latest version they need to be warned. Users will naturally assume that if the folder sidebar says that a file has been updated then that version of the file exists locally - that isn't necassarily the case.
- There needs to be a way of "checking-out" or "locking" a file. i.e. Making it writable by only one person. Conflict resolution is all well and good but there are definitely situations where it is preferred that conflits never happen in the first place.
- When a file is getting synced to a folder for the first time then there is a "ghost" image that signifies the file is currently getting synced. I'm not sure if the same happens for a sync occurring to a file where a previous version already exists but if it doesn't - then it should.
- I would like to have the ability to manually kick off a sync rather than letting it happen in the background. based on recent experience I simply don't trust Mesh to do it for me adequately enough.
- I remember at one point in the conflict resolution dialog that the 'keep this item' button was greyed out for one of the versions. I couldn't fathom why this was so it would be nice if you told us WHY it was greyed out.
- The conflict resolution dialog needs to say who last updated each version, when it was updated, and on which device. (I've stated this elsewhere on this forum but its worth reiterating)
This is all based on a few weeks of usage but its really come to a head this week because we have been making many updates across multiple devices. As I say, it hasn't been the wonderful seamless experience that we thought it would be. I'm probably being a bit unfair because I'm not able to explain the chain of events that occurred but hopefully the fact that it HAS occurred should set a few alarm bells ringing.
Let me know if you have any questions.Thanks
Jamie
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomson- Edited by Jamie Thomson Thursday, July 3, 2008 4:14 PM formatting
Thursday, July 3, 2008 4:12 PM -
Any comments on these suggestions above? Do you acknowledge the problems that they're intended to solve?
Note that we suspect some of this experienceican be attributed to the strange Excel behaviour that I reported in this thread: http://forums.community.microsoft.com/en/LiveMesh/thread/befc388b-839d-43e2-977a-0a881f020d22
-Jamie
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomsonWednesday, July 9, 2008 12:50 PM -
Jamie,
Let me attempt to address some of your concerns. We acknowledge that the user experience surrounding sharing and simultaneous editing and conflict resolution isn’t the best it could be today (even for tech savvy users). (Note that none of what I write here should be construed as a promise of features to come.)
1. News event vs. file download. Yes, you’re right. It’s not clear that the news event is no indication of whether or not the file has actually sync’ed to this device.
2. Checking out files for update. This is one feature that many have proposed. However, it can get thorny once you ask other questions like: how long is the file checked out for? What happens if the person/device never checks the file back in (machine is wiped/stolen, etc.)? One could implement a timeout or override, but this seems complicated. What would avoid this whole mess is if there were some *visual indication* given to the users of the Live Mesh Folder that User A is editing this file *right now*, so you might want to hold off on your changes until she’s done. This is hard to do today. Once Mesh gets more broadly adopted, one could imagine applications interacting with the Mesh through the APIs to do exactly this sort of thing. In fact, you could take it one step further and have multiple users simultaneously editing and resolving… but I am getting ahead of myself.
3. Ghosted file while downloading update. Ah excellent. We actually implemented this exact behaviour at first: replace the file in the Live Mesh Folder with a ghost the instant you know that there is a newer/updated copy of the file in the Mesh somewhere. This would indicate to the user that something new is on its way, so you might want to wait for it. (I’m a huge proponent of this.) Unfortunately, we don’t yet have the UX to allow users to open up the older copy of the file to look at (or even edit), until the new one gets downloaded. This is critical because you don’t necessarily know when you’ll get to downloading that file (slow connection, or the machine with that file is offline, etc.). So we decided to go with the current experience for now (it’s less confusing as well, as your files don’t suddenly disappear). I would guess that in the future we allow this as an option for users to choose which type of experience they want.
4. Manually kicking off sync. Agree. And why not take this one step further? Sync this file (and only this file) right now. Sync this folder right now. Sync this folder the next time I’m online. Stop sync’ing this folder for 3h. Stop sync’ing for 5h. The possibilities are endless.
5. ‘Keep this item’ button greyed out in Conflict Resolution dialog. Ah yes. This is a bug. It has to do with how FeedSync deals with conflicts (which you can read about in the spec) and with how the Live Mesh client does conflict resolution. Suffice to say that it is annoying and we want it fixed too. :)
6. More info in Conflict Resolution dialog. Yes I remember that thread too.
I hope that offers some comfort. Your cries of frustration are not in vain.
Richard Chung [ Live Mesh ]- Marked as answer by Jamie Thomson Friday, July 11, 2008 3:01 PM
Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:24 PMAnswerer -
This is good stuff, Richard. And, Jamie, thanks for bringing it up for discussion.
I see the problems being faced in these scenarios...
Of everything in your reply, Richard, I'd really like to see the ability to force a sync for a file or a folder.
-steve
Microsoft MVP Windows Live / Windows Live OneCare Forum ModeratorFriday, July 11, 2008 2:35 PMModerator -
Hey Richard,
Superb reply, its very much appreciated believe me.
You've gone a long way to putting my mind at rest - I'm glad this has caught the attention of someone. Even just an acknowledgement goes a long way.
1. Cool. I'm aware that there's 2 feeds in play here, one for the folder and one for the news. God knows how you'll sort that one out!!!
2. I guess the "awareness" feature could be but into use here (i.e. UserA is in this folder and is editing this file). I take your point about the complexities of check-out in a multi-master environment - but I still think this needs to be allowed in some way. You're right that ther's a lot of people asking for it.
3. Woohoo. Good news.
4. Good to know this might be on the table. Gets my vote.
5. Delighed that the greyed out button was a bug - cos that had me completely flummoxed!
6. ditto. I'm sure you'll sort this out.
cheers
Jamie
http://jamiethomson.spaces.live.com/ | http://blogs.conchango.com/jamiethomsonFriday, July 11, 2008 3:12 PM