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Private forum --- (Troll Hunt continue) RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • I just started this the other thread was too slow.

    If we think that a private forum for the regular would be a good thing, We should realy try to contact and urge Microsoft to create it.

    I a way, I think that we deserve it, some of us spend more time each week working on this forum than the people that are pay to maintain it. --- And we do it for free.

    To me, it would be much more usefull if it was part of MSDN Forum and it could be see in "My Forum Threads" or at least from a button somewhere that appears in "My Forum Threads".

    Of course I haven't see the forum software, but it appears to me to be a simple thing to add a patch that will give this functionality to the forum, Specialy if they choose to use a button to access.

    It would be good that all those interrested gives their idea in this thread, .. If there is ant enough people interrested, there will be no way to press Microsoft to create such forum

    Friday, January 13, 2012 10:52 AM

All replies

  • The idea of a "lounge" for forum users has been brought up before and I think it is a good idea.  So I support the notion and will help any way I can to help out.

    I suspect that MS has resisted the idea of a lounge (e.g. The lounge at CodeProject http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx) on purpose whatever that might be.  It would be nice to hear the perspective on this topic from a MS representative.

    Friday, January 13, 2012 5:58 PM
  • Who is in charge of the forums at Microsoft?

    Is it Ed Price, ... Or somebody else?

    Friday, January 13, 2012 6:59 PM
  • Hi Cor,

    Well, I am french Canadian,  And for the typo, I am the Champion!

    Of couse I am more familiar with the American english, but, to me it is an international English forum, (Even if it say "United States" in the top corner)

    To me, I would find stupid for a British to use American english, or for an Indian english to use British English or for a South African to use Indian english ...

    It is just a question for every body to try to be understood, I wont say "Hello Yall" if I am talking to you.

    If someone say that the American english is better than another one, I just think that he cannot be serious.(May be is he serious, but then, I it is not my problem.)

    For the private forum, My only wish with that is that we get to know each other a little more.

    I find sad that have worked side by side  for years and I dont know your name, I dont know if you are 30 or 65, and just know in what part of the word you are from by because I noticed at what time you are never online.

     


    • Edited by Crazypennie Friday, January 13, 2012 10:08 PM
    Friday, January 13, 2012 10:06 PM
  • Friday, January 13, 2012 10:14 PM
  • There will never be another Trujade :(
    Friday, January 13, 2012 10:23 PM
  • Not that anyone asked me but I'll proffer my thoughts on this forthwith. In and of itself, it’s a great idea with a few provisos:

     

    1.

    It can’t be private. If it were private then it’d be exclusive and even though I understand that rationale, who decides on who gets in? No matter the choice – even if by group vote – that, by definition, leaves someone out. Why?

    No, I disagree with that fundamental policy completely. I think it should be WIDE open to anyone who agrees to the rules.

    2.

    What are the rules? Nothing illegal.

    Beyond that – no rules. No banned words, no banned anything unless it’s illegal. Want to vent, then vent and NOT using the “polite words” if you just don’t want to. I tend to create profanity on the fly!

    So accepting the rules essentially says that you knowingly are walking into a forum where there may be vulgarity and who knows what.

    By definition of the law, therefore, the consenter must be of legal age of majority.

    3.

    Moderators only police that those few rules are followed.

    4.

    It CANNOT be on a Microsoft server nor sponsored nor even endorsed by Microsoft for all of the reasons stated above.

     

    Just my thoughts – others may disagree. ;-)

    Friday, January 13, 2012 10:58 PM
  • The same chagrin like Crazypenny for me.

    I still am sad about that she did not reply anymore

    But was a great initiative.

     


    Success
    Cor
    Friday, January 13, 2012 10:58 PM
  •  

    Agreed and probably all MVP agree, we are not bound to rules of Microsoft, but to our own standards, which we should keep high according to our own national standards, in which not any MVP would be dishonour their own national standards according to international behaviour.

    Be aware I've not in any way the idea Microsoft has another opinion than what I wrote above.



    Cor



    Friday, January 13, 2012 11:01 PM
  • Crazypennie, 

     

    You are one of the persons among many which I respect. 

    However, please don't follow those Thee party Americans, who think that the only way to life is their American way (and read their not the common American way). (I don't even know if you are an American).

    I know that most Americans have another opinion than them, but you present in this forum it as the American opinion. 

    I hope I don't abuse you, like those Americans have abused me and probably all non-Americans with their words. 

    Most of us know the funeral pissers don't represent Americans, but these so called discussion threads to show the superiority of Americans make me mad. Be aware the only superiority I've read so far their ability to understand the American slang of English. 

    Most of us here active are only willing to help others with our knowledge wherever they life and want to learn from others from things we don't know yet and recognize in this forum. 

    Yes, we make typos, we don't use American slang and even in we don't make always the correct sentences in International English; but at least many of us are able to understand those who are not using the slang of our neighbourhood without complaining about that. (By the way, I checked one of the message from SJ Whiteley it did contain 10 simple errors in the English language).

    So please leave this abuse to the world to the Thee Party Americans. Be aware Microsoft is not their lead, it is just a terrorist action from it seems two Thee party Americans who think patriotism is the same as terrorism.

    Let us go on helping everybody in the world, if they use Indian English, Dutch English, English English, Scottish English, American English or whatever English, it are only the bad developers who are not able to understand what somebody means in code. 

     


    Success
    Cor

    Well... I guess to start with, it saddens me that you seem to be letting anger be your tone in a thread that is explicitly about how to deal with posters who write angry, abusive posts. Wow.

    Anyhow, as an American I guess I'm qualified to respond. First, you need to understand that the term American can't possibly refer to any one "type" of person. I mean come one, you can't say all Americans are alike any more than all Europeans are alike. Second, setting aside the question if all the people contributing to these two threads are Americans, I seriously doubt any of us are the brash, blindly egotistical bullies as the stereotype you are pinning on us. Please stop - its just insulting.

    The members of Tea Party in America most certainly do not equate patriotism with terrorism. They tend claim themselves as patriots, commonly at the exclusion of anyone else who does not agree with their belief system (though the Tea Party is not a monolith either, so there are many flavors of it - and no, I do not associate with them). You might do well not to attempt to cite them in a discussion of this type since the Tea Party is purely a political movement and not an ideology that translates to this discussion well. It only detracts from your point.

    As for the contributors here complaining about grammer and spelling of non-English speaking members... if you're looking for a political association to broadly and unfairly brush them with maybe you could try "Liberal Elitist" since it is often claimed that they are snooty, exclusionary and obsessed with proper language (This is a joke BTW). Though American liberals tend to be very open to multi-nationalism so perhaps its better to just not relate to political persuans at all.

    My perspective is that no one here should complain about broken English because this is an English language forum, not a US forum. I think we all know that and some were just venting frustration more than trying to be mean.


    • Edited by Dig-Boy Friday, January 13, 2012 11:40 PM
    Friday, January 13, 2012 11:38 PM
  •  

    Agreed and probably all MVP agree, we are not bound to rules of Microsoft, but to our own standards, which we should keep high according to our own national standards, in which not any MVP would be dishonour their own national standards according to international behaviour.

    Be aware I've not in any way the idea Microsoft has another opinion than what I wrote above.



    To clarify for those who don't know, the MVP title is an award granted through a nomination and review process that entitle members to certain heightened priveleges within the MS ecosystem.  One of the stipulations by MS is that those who accept the award agree to act "professionally" in the community.  Violators can have their MVP status revoked.  So in many ways we ARE bound to the rules of Microsoft, perhaps even above the implied standards of our own nationalities or cultures if those standards were more lax than that of Microsoft.
    Friday, January 13, 2012 11:50 PM
  • @CrazyPennie:  If you are looking for a place to get your suggestion considered then you might want to try the Feedback and Suggestions forum: 

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/suggest/threads

    Friday, January 13, 2012 11:56 PM
  • Hi,

    to everybody who is reading this thread, please read first read this thread: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en/vbgeneral/thread/42a9b031-992f-4d1f-b6a8-cfefc372c621 so that you understand what we are talking about.

    @ all: I miss Trujade also, and don't forget about Jeff. Also , i think we shouldn't be that political.


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:21 AM
  • Crazypennie,

     

    However, please don't follow those Thee party Americans, who think that the only way to life is their American way (and read their not the common American way). (I don't even know if you are an American). 

    Most of us here active are only willing to help others with our knowledge wherever they life and want to learn from others from things we don't know yet and recognize in this forum.

    Yes, we make typos, we don't use American slang and even in we don't make always the correct sentences in International English; but at least many of us are able to understand those who are not using the slang of our neighbourhood without complaining about that. (By the way, I checked one of the message from SJ Whiteley it did contain 10 simple errors in the English language).

    So please leave this abuse to the world to the Thee Party Americans. Be aware Microsoft is not their lead, it is just a terrorist action from it seems two Thee party Americans who think patriotism is the same as terrorism.

    Let us go on helping everybody in the world, if they use Indian English, Dutch English, English English, Scottish English, American English or whatever English, it are only the bad developers who are not able to understand what somebody means in code.

     


    Success
    Cor

    Hmmm.

    I think everybody so far on this thread and the previous go out of their way to help any and all who post on these Forums. I don't see where it has been proposed we limit participation to those who speak American english. The other thread did get into the language barrier somewhat. I posted about it, but merely stated it was sometimes hard to decipher the exact problem/request, not that we shouldn't help them or banish them from the Forums.

    If that makes me a bad developer, so be it. I will still help where I can.

    That is precisely why I posted the link about the HELLO WORLD thread. Why is it one of my favorites of all time? Because of the diversity of the members - we come from all over the world. And some of the friendships I've developed from the Forums are with people from outside of America and from non-English speaking cultures. I love how no matter where we are from, we try to help those with problems with their code.

    As Hannes said, this is not and should not be a political Forum - if it were, I would not participate.

     

    Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:54 AM
  • Hi Joe,

    Well said, I could not agree more.  :)


    Hi ALL,

    Do not forget that some of the forum members started this website.>>

    http://wecode.in/

     




    Regards,

    profile for John Anthony Oliver at Stack Overflow, Q&A for professional and enthusiast programmers

    Click this link to see the NEW way of how to insert a picture into a forum post.

    Installing VB6 on Windows 7

    App Hub for Windows Phone & XBOX 360 developers.

    Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:04 AM
  • Not that anyone asked me but I'll proffer my thoughts on this forthwith. In and of itself, it’s a great idea with a few provisos:

     

    1.

    It can’t be private. If it were private then it’d be exclusive and even though I understand that rationale, who decides on who gets in? No matter the choice – even if by group vote – that, by definition, leaves someone out. Why?

    No, I disagree with that fundamental policy completely. I think it should be WIDE open to anyone who agrees to the rules.

    2.

    What are the rules? Nothing illegal.

    Beyond that – no rules. No banned words, no banned anything unless it’s illegal. Want to vent, then vent and NOT using the “polite words” if you just don’t want to. I tend to create profanity on the fly!

    So accepting the rules essentially says that you knowingly are walking into a forum where there may be vulgarity and who knows what.

    By definition of the law, therefore, the consenter must be of legal age of majority.

    3.

    Moderators only police that those few rules are followed.

    4.

    It CANNOT be on a Microsoft server nor sponsored nor even endorsed by Microsoft for all of the reasons stated above.

     

    Just my thoughts – others may disagree. ;-)


    1)

    by private, I dont understand an exclusive club, this forum would let in anyone who has demonstrate that he have the skills and have done on the forum enought work to be call a regular.  It is certainly not under a process of vote or anything like this that the member can be choose on a forum of this type.

    Members of the forum will have to be enroll from a process that can in any way let someone out if he has meet the required criteria.

    I was thinking to something like: If you have the "Forum Answerer IV" you can log in the forum, and if you dont, you cannot log.

    No discrimination, no favoritism .. You meet the criteria you are welcome in

    2)

    Rules: they are the same as they are here. Yes some may go too far in what they are writing, but they are doing it here any way.

    And if they do, I am sure that it will be much less people that will be under the legal age(if any) in a forum where you need "Forum Answerer IV" to log in than there are here.

    Any way, I dont see why we would create more profanities in that forum than we are doing here

    Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:18 AM
  • @CrazyPennie:  If you are looking for a place to get your suggestion considered then you might want to try the Feedback and Suggestions forum: 

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/suggest/threads


    Posting in that forum will only give us a comment from whoever will be in charge if reading the forum that day ... and it will be forgot.

    The only way to get it is to prepare something well defined. Something that can be accepted by the "Politicaly Correct" policy of Microsoft. Something that will also show the need of such thing.

    We need to be able to put on that something the maximum of regular answerer possible,

    And present this directly to the right person.

    It is doable, It is simply a well done letter or email with a bunch of name on it.

    Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:37 AM
  • Microsoft is not "politically correct" except in the broadest sense of the word. Microsoft's primary motivator is PROFIT. Just remember that statistically, that's the same as AVERAGE (IQ=100). Sobering isnt it?

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:12 AM
  • If Microsoft was not doing profit, ... there would be no VB, .. so no Forums ... And therefore we would  not be asking for anything
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:17 AM
  • That's a debate in itself. I've had many computer languages and believe it or not Great ones existed prior to microsoft and C. When I used those languages I did not ask for anything. Indeed, it was before the internet existed. Things were very good then.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:23 AM
  • However, when they stopped doing profit, ... They all desappeared

    Good time is gone,

    The king is dead, long live the king !

    Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:31 AM
  • Anyhow, as an American I guess I'm qualified to respond. First, you need to understand that the term American can't possibly refer to any one "type" of person. I mean come one, you can't say all Americans are alike any more than all Europeans are alike. Second, setting aside the question if all the people contributing to these two threads are Americans, I seriously doubt any of us are the brash, blindly egotistical bullies as the stereotype you are pinning on us. Please stop - its just insulting.

     

     

     CrazyPennie wrote that he started this thread as a follow up of the previous thread, so I became afraid that we would again get all that bloating about perfect writing American English 

    Did I write that there is one "type" of American? My intention was to write the opposite; but be aware I tried to show how outside the USA Americans are seen as a stereotype, which is in my opinion not the case.

    I don't see you in the first place as an American; I see you as a community member, like I see everybody here as a community member were the challenge is that we try to communicate with each other using the highest standards which are used in every nation which is a member of the United Nations.

    You see I cannot even write Tea Party, it was however a stereotype which came the most in my mind when I was writing my reply. I've not any political intention around that party at all, as you see I cannot even write the name well. So my intention was not to write anything about that party, Americans or whatever. It was just that I cannot stand miss placed elitists (I could have used better that word).

    So sorry if I've hurt anybody not involved in this, just because I used the word American or Thee Party, for me Americans are the same as everybody else in the world.

    J

    I've changed it in my original text according what you in fact wrote for me.


    • Edited by Cor Ligthert Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:42 AM Change of original text
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:48 AM
  • Anyhow, as an American I guess I'm qualified to respond. First, you need to understand that the term American can't possibly refer to any one "type" of person. I mean come one, you can't say all Americans are alike any more than all Europeans are alike. Second, setting aside the question if all the people contributing to these two threads are Americans, I seriously doubt any of us are the brash, blindly egotistical bullies as the stereotype you are pinning on us. Please stop - its just insulting.

     

     

     CrazyPennie wrote that he started this thread as a follow up of the previous thread, so I became afraid that we would again get all that bloating about perfect writing American English 

    Did I write that there is one "type" of American? My intention was to write the opposite; but be aware I tried to show how outside the USA Americans are seen as a stereotype, which is in my opinion not the case.

    I don't see you in the first place as an American; I see you as a community member, like I see everybody here as a community member were the challenge is that we try to communicate with each other using the highest standards which are used in every nation which is a member of the United Nations.

    You see I cannot even write Tea Party, it was however a stereotype which came the most in my mind when I was writing my reply. I've not any political intention around that party at all, as you see I cannot even write the name well. So my intention was not to write anything about that party, Americans or whatever. It was just that I cannot stand miss placed elitists (I could have used better that word).

    So sorry if I've hurt anybody not involved in this, just because I used the word American or Thee Party, for me Americans are the same as everybody else in the world.

    J

    I've changed it in my original text according what you in fact wrote for me.



    Well that makes more sense now that you've explained it.  I doubt you've hurt anyone but I'm sure a few were confused.

    I guess we are illustrating in a microcosm some of the topics discussed in the other thread - including pulling threads off track  :/

    Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:10 PM
  • "No, I disagree with that fundamental policy completely. I think it should be WIDE open to anyone who agrees to the rules."

    I wouldn't. I'd like to talk to competent writers.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:35 PM
  • " who decides on who gets in?"

    Competency.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 4:01 PM
  • American English...but English and it is written that this is an English speaking forum. Presumably it fosters our ability to communicate.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

    Sunday, January 15, 2012 4:03 PM

  • Crazypennie, 

     

    You are one of the persons among many which I respect. 

    However, please don't follow those Elitists, who think that the only way to life is their American way (and read their not the common American way). (I don't even know if you are an American). 

    I know that most Americans have another opinion than them, but you present in this forum it as the American opinion. 

    I hope I don't abuse you, like those Americans have abused me and probably all non-Americans with their words. 

    Most of us know the funeral pissers don't represent Americans, but these so called discussion threads to show the superiority of Americans make me mad. Be aware the only superiority I've read so far their ability to understand the American slang of English. 

    Most of us here active are only willing to help others with our knowledge wherever they life and want to learn from others from things we don't know yet and recognize in this forum. 

    Yes, we make typos, we don't use American slang and even in we don't make always the correct sentences in International English; but at least many of us are able to understand those who are not using the slang of our neighbourhood without complaining about that. (By the way, I checked one of the message from SJ Whiteley it did contain 10 simple errors in the English language).

    Be aware Microsoft is not their lead, it is just a terrorist action from it seems some Americans elitists who think patriotism is the same as terrorism.

    Let us go on helping everybody in the world, if they use Indian English, Dutch English, English English, Scottish English, American English or whatever English, it are only the bad developers who are not able to understand what somebody means in code. 

     


    Success
    Cor


    It is this kind of 'chip on your shoulder' attitude which blind you to the problem that needs addressing. Since you accuse me of spelling errors with no evidence - indeed, lets see them, show me where I have made spelling errors - shall we then nit pick your atrocious, incomprehensible, grammar? Your politicising of everything and accusations towards Americans, with no evidence that your accusations are towards an American? Or is it just America that you target these attacks? Couple that with your 'us and them' attitude is complete BS and the reason there is so much carp [sic] on these forums.

    Whenever anything is pointed out - that you are in error, that it is completely unclear in your commentary - this same old 'Americans don't rule the forums' BS comes out.

    Yeah, I'm pssed off. The garbage in a handbasket is where we are heading: a lack of education and all-round ignorance, and particularly the anti-American 'slobbery' sums this sort of thing up.

    [And, yes, I'm well aware this will be seen as a 'personal attack' in this 'coddling' world].


    Stephen J Whiteley
    Monday, January 16, 2012 4:17 PM
  • " shall we then nit pick your atrocious, incomprehensible, grammar? Your politicising of everything and accusations towards Americans, with no evidence that your accusations are towards an American? Or is it just America that you target these attacks? Couple that with your 'us and them' attitude is complete BS and the reason there is so much carp [sic] on these forums.

    Whenever anything is pointed out - that you are in error, that it is completely unclear in your commentary - this same old 'Americans don't rule the forums' BS comes out.

    Yeah, I'm pssed off. The garbage in a handbasket is where we are heading: a lack of education and all-round ignorance, and particularly the anti-American 'slobbery' sums this sort of thing up.

    [And, yes, I'm well aware this will be seen as a 'personal attack' in this 'coddling' world]."

     

    Not from here you will not receive disagreement because I agree with everything you said.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 4:45 PM


  • It is this kind of 'chip on your shoulder' attitude which blind you to the problem that needs addressing. Since you accuse me of spelling errors with no evidence - indeed, lets see them, show me where I have made spelling errors - shall we then nit pick your atrocious, incomprehensible, grammar? Your politicising of everything and accusations towards Americans, with no evidence that your accusations are towards an American? Or is it just America that you target these attacks? Couple that with your 'us and them' attitude is complete BS and the reason there is so much carp [sic] on these forums.

    Whenever anything is pointed out - that you are in error, that it is completely unclear in your commentary - this same old 'Americans don't rule the forums' BS comes out.

    Yeah, I'm pssed off. The garbage in a handbasket is where we are heading: a lack of education and all-round ignorance, and particularly the anti-American 'slobbery' sums this sort of thing up.

    [And, yes, I'm well aware this will be seen as a 'personal attack' in this 'coddling' world].


    Stephen J Whiteley

    Maybe a surprise for you, this is not a forum about the English Language and for sure not about the American English language, this forum is about the Visual Basic program language. So I cannot help you to make corrections on your English.

    However, like I’ve written especially, I've nothing against Americans. For me Americans are the same as everybody else in the world. But it is true; I've something against elitist whose behaviour makes for instance that American soldiers on mission are killed, because not everybody in the outside world understands that not every American is the same.

    For the rest, even if I would've done what you wrote (which I deny), than I only can say, don't call the kettle black.


    Success
    Cor
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:02 PM
  • Cor,

    Give this some thought before responding....

    "You are one of the persons among many which I respect. 

    However, please don't follow those Elitists, who think that the only way to life is their American way (and read their not the common American way). (I don't even know if you are an American). 

    I know that most Americans have another opinion than them, but you present in this forum it as the American opinion. 

    I hope I don't abuse you, like those Americans have abused me and probably all non-Americans with their words. 

    Most of us know the funeral pissers don't represent Americans, but these so called discussion threads to show the superiority of Americans make me mad. Be aware the only superiority I've read so far their ability to understand the American slang of English. "

    This is pure bull crap. Besides that...you have not defined who the elitists are. You left that up to the imagination? Who does this note respond to?

    By the way...MS .Nets Goal is to make programming easy so they can make a profit. Except this forum proves that programming isn't easy...even the uber lame applications programming. There is not much choice is that because ms has always closed the operating system.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

     


    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:07 PM
  • Perhaps....no microsoft....no VB IS A VERY GOOD idea, Crazypennie.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:22 PM
  • Thats true in an economic system based on profit...which is a bige probem.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:24 PM
  • What you mean Renee?
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:25 PM
  • I meant that the idea of keeping a closed (no sources) exec makes everyone an applications programmer and really....applications programming is VERY BORING.

    I would not be sorry to see microsoft dissapear at all.

    THAT is what I mean.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:32 PM
  • Cor,

    Isn't Crazypennie a woman?

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:37 PM
  • " But it is true; I've something against elitist whose behaviour makes for instance that American soldiers on mission are killed, because not everybody in the outside world understands that not every American is the same."

    This makes little sense. These are English words true BUT they are not put together the way someone who understands English would.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 5:52 PM
  • "To me, I would find stupid for a British to use American english, or for an Indian english to use British English or for a South African to use Indian english ...

    It is just a question for every body to try to be understood, I wont say "Hello Yall" if I am talking to you.

    If someone say that the American english is better than another one, I just think that he cannot be serious.(May be is he serious, but then, I it is not my problem.)"

    English is a LANGUAGE. IF we are speaking English (as opposed to a simulalcrum) then those writing in English (as opposed to a simulalcrum) will not have difficulty understanding each other.

    Renee 


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 6:01 PM
  • Renee,

    I am not a woman ... Not American, ... Not even a native english speaking person

    Monday, January 16, 2012 6:02 PM
  • Well, I stand corrected. I knew you were not a native English speaker. I did not know that you were not in the US until today.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 6:25 PM
  • Well I work in the US, but I am french Canadian
    Monday, January 16, 2012 6:36 PM
  • Yes, I know!

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Monday, January 16, 2012 7:12 PM
  • Crazypennie, 

     

    You are one of the persons among many which I respect. 

    However, please don't follow those Thee party Americans, who think that the only way to life is their American way (and read their not the common American way). (I don't even know if you are an American).

    I know that most Americans have another opinion than them, but you present in this forum it as the American opinion. 

    I hope I don't abuse you, like those Americans have abused me and probably all non-Americans with their words. 

    Most of us know the funeral pissers don't represent Americans, but these so called discussion threads to show the superiority of Americans make me mad. Be aware the only superiority I've read so far their ability to understand the American slang of English. 

    Most of us here active are only willing to help others with our knowledge wherever they life and want to learn from others from things we don't know yet and recognize in this forum. 

    Yes, we make typos, we don't use American slang and even in we don't make always the correct sentences in International English; but at least many of us are able to understand those who are not using the slang of our neighbourhood without complaining about that. (By the way, I checked one of the message from SJ Whiteley it did contain 10 simple errors in the English language).

    So please leave this abuse to the world to the Thee Party Americans. Be aware Microsoft is not their lead, it is just a terrorist action from it seems two Thee party Americans who think patriotism is the same as terrorism.

    Let us go on helping everybody in the world, if they use Indian English, Dutch English, English English, Scottish English, American English or whatever English, it are only the bad developers who are not able to understand what somebody means in code. 

     


    Success
    Cor

    Well... I guess to start with, it saddens me that you seem to be letting anger be your tone in a thread that is explicitly about how to deal with posters who write angry, abusive posts. Wow.

     


    I'm glad someone said it...

    I just don't know what to do anymore... (well, yeah, I guess I do)

    Could anyone here possibly come up with a more blatant example of Trolling?

    This has to be the worst one yet... completely off topic, makes a personal request to support an opinionated ideal, is centered on nationality-based bigotry, and contains direct confrontational remarks toward another user... I mean, wow, to hit 'em all in one shot even after an edit.... I'm not sure whether to be impressed or horrified.

    By the time I got to Frank's post I was like "what is he talking about?", and then I realized, "oh, yeah, the topic".

    So this is what the result of the other thread called for: bringing attention to violations and asking for it to stop.  Lets give it a try... this makes the third or fourth post stating that the community finds the post unacceptable.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Monday, January 16, 2012 10:16 PM
  • By the time I got to Frank's post I was like "what is he talking about?", and then I realized, "oh, yeah, the topic".

    Ha! ;-)

     

    Monday, January 16, 2012 11:13 PM
  • This forum doesn't get anything done because to many people are stupid. This is like #OWS online.

    (Unsuscribing from thread)


    Jordan St. Godard | Microsoft® Community Contributor 2011


    Man, this thread is bringing out the worst in everyone, isn't it?

    There's many things you can say about this forum as criticism...  but not getting anything done is certainly not one of them.  The majority of questions get responses starting in less than 30 minutes, many times in only a few minutes -- including from MCCs like you.  Threads move fast around here.  Things get done well.

    The "stupid" comment is just in poor taste.  @Reed, I think I'm starting to pick up on your original post's sentiments.  I guess there does seem to be a problem around here.

     

     

    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:22 AM
  • There's many things you can say about this forum as criticism...  but not getting anything done is certainly not one of them.  The majority of questions get responses starting in less than 30 minutes, many times in only a few minutes -- including from MCCs like you.  Threads move fast around here.  Things get done well.

    I agree Dig.

    As for the other, eh - I pretty much just stay out of it. The one time that I really "got into it" with someone was this new guy that wanted free code (come to think of it, he wanted free programs, ready to distribute) and he went off on a regular here -- and that raised my ire. I let it get the best of me, I was marked as "abusive", and Matt finally locked the thread.

    Since that time, I've come to look at things with a very simple litmus test: "Does this have to do with VB or what the OP is asking?". If not ... why bring it up?

    :)

    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:36 AM
  • What do you wish?

    I spent many years here "helping". But now I've been in a car accident with an illegal alien and I recognize my need to relearn a tremendous amount of things. I've never, ever like business programming. For me it's a nop.

    I think a major problem is English. There is a lot of pretense that people speak it...but the dont really.

    Do I want exclsive? Well yes. I like talking to competent people. I have never needed people who say, I've just started programming. Hell. there are plenty of books for them to learn in.

    This forum sees far too many people who are biting off way too much technically. They admit it but none here has the guts to say that. I tell them to read.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:50 AM
  • Frank,

    There are FAR TOO MANY people who come to this forum with the most minimal idea of what they want and specifications they give match.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:57 AM
  • This forum sees far too many people who are biting off way too much technically. They admit it but none here has the guts to say that. I tell them to read.


    The reality is, for those who make a career out of programming, if you are not technically challenging yourself continually in this field then you might want to start planning for a new career.  For those avocationals who are biting off too much...  go for it!  It builds character and learning is never a bad option, especially when there are no serious ramifications for failure.
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:02 AM
  • Frank,

    There are FAR TOO MANY people who come to this forum with the most minimal idea of what they want and specifications they give match.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me


    I understand - and I won't say you're wrong, but what's wrong with that?

    It's a Microsoft product they're using (free or paid version), so what's wrong with looking for help on a Microsoft site whose principal purpose is getting help about that particular product?

    I'm more than happy to help when and where I can.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:03 AM
  • I think I answered that question in a permanent post in VB Express several years ago.

    Much time is required to ask them questions that it was their responsibility to give as if our time wasn't worth anything. If it isn't valuable, why are we here and why does this and other forums exist?

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:24 AM
  • Our time is worth what we are willing to offer.  If it is a burden to you then you need to ask yourself if that cost is worth continuing to offer answers.  Being a regular answerer here is a choice after all. 
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:46 AM
  • Our time is worth what we are willing to offer.  If it is a burden to you then you need to ask yourself if that cost is worth continuing to offer answers.  Being a regular answerer here is a choice after all. 

    It least, something rational will have been said in this thread
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:24 AM
  • "I understand - and I won't say you're wrong, but what's wrong with that?

    It's a Microsoft product they're using (free or paid version), so what's wrong with looking for help on a Microsoft site whose principal purpose is getting help about that particular product?

    I'm more than happy to help when and where I can.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point."

    Perhaps we will. I value my time and I look at the nature of the question prior to answering. If it's well specified then I may answer. If it's not or "it's all over the place" I won't answer.

    Most of all, I try to judge the person based on the insight they demonstrate in the question. Are they empathic? Are they consciensus in asking the question and how much insight do they show in what they are asking. These are the same qualities that make a good software person.

    I divide the question what I classify as "my work" and "yours". If the asker has done what I think is their work, that enhances the chances that I'll answer their question.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:43 AM
  • I just started this the other thread was too slow.

     


    lol poor Pennie =P

    At any rate, I do like the idea of access to a contributor chat forum being based on standing as it is measured by forum metrics.  Like you say, if the numbers say you can be in there, then you can be in there.

    I agree with you that all of the same usage rules need to apply, but in the spirit of Frank's suggestion, there should be no refrain on the topics; threads are generally anything goes so long as they follow the basic decency requirements of the site.

    I saw you ask who was in charge... and I'm not really sure of the answer anymore... lol maybe no one =P


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 4:34 AM
  • "If it is a burden to you then you need to ask yourself if that cost is worth continuing to offer answers."

    Did I say anything at all about burden? I don't think I have to ask myself anything because I know clearly what I want.

    Culturally it's becaming less available. I've been here since 2004. When I first arrived, everyone was about a competent as Paul from Texas. SJ touched briefly with what I am dealing with. I am dealing with the entire forum (with a few clear exceptions) becoming less competent. In a way MS wants this, because they want to see to those who will buy. Giving away software is part of the master plan.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me


    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:22 AM
  • Did I say anything at all about burden? I don't think I have to ask myself anything because I know clearly what I want.


    Yes.

    Much time is required to ask them questions that it was their responsibility to give as if our time wasn't worth anything. If it isn't valuable, why are we here and why does this and other forums exist?

    The clear message to be heard in your post is that there is a perceived and felt cost to you for answering questions (which is true for all of us IMO).  Maybe that's not what you were trying to say but that's what was heard.  And that's okay -- it's a very valid sentiment.

     

    Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:20 PM
  • Well your right IF you want to define burden as "perceived cost". Of course it exists. Yes!!! If people would just give us the information that we need - to help them.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:00 AM
  • Well, this thread has bogged down just like the other one with minimal post count: really, this is an example of how Microsoft (as a corporation) operate. While I'm no fan of 'agile' development (or any other faddish development style, which is basically a rehash of 50's, 60' 70's and 80's ways of development), the really cool advances in technology come from a select - elite - few.

    As Renee has said, Microsoft is in the business of selling software. To continue, they have little interest in making better developers. As Balmer danced around on the stage [We need to sell to] 'Developers! Developers! Developers!': not development. This is why we have a rapid recycling of old ideas are new again, and huge MS investment in development software. The OS market is a commodity, MS has the market share with an inferior product. Developers, on the other hand, are a market where they can expand - expansion means more sales.

    Since MS has nothing to gain from advancing skills as a developer, only to get more developers on-board and into the buying cycle with VB/C# Express the 'gateway drug' of the developer market.

    Good, or even mediocre, developers don't come about because they have the tools - there's a lot of people out there as witnessed by the (lack of) communicative skills on this forum that have really no business being developers. Owning development software and face-rolling the keyboard on a forum doesn't make one a developer, any more that owning a gun makes one a marksman, or owning a car a competent driver.

    Some have argued that the forum is for 'solving problems' yet the problems that are being solved are basic, fundamental issues, and are not really problems. A cursory examination of the documentation will answer 90% of the questions posted. Further, the forum puts value in answering such questions - gold stars replaced by 'up twinklies' (green arrow and an abstract number). The MVP/MCC or whatever the new wave of 'extra special gold stars' furthers the attempt to add value to a valueless persuit. Heck, I know out of the 'points' I've accumulated there's probably less than a dozen posts of any actual value. The others are just 'I looked this up in the documentation, cos I r smart like dat'.

    Should the forums be a place to create better developers or to simply answer questions? Well, the latter is a blatant failure and waste of effort, since better developers are really the only way we don't end up with truly crappy software which we have all come to expect on a Microsoft platform. My experience with other development arenas, where I have little experience, is a lot harsher: there are right ways of doing things and wrong ways (which is global, and does apply to Windows/MS development, regardless of what people would like to think). Yes, there are stupid questions. The overall standard is raised because before one contemplates asking a question, one must first educate oneself on the subject in question. They are only 'elitist' when you act like an incomprehensible, ignorant and lazy amoeba. Which, most posts here are: imcomprehensible (lacking in grammar and clarity), ignorant (posts about basic, documented, information or solved by basic self-education) and lazy (the answer is there but want someone else to do the work for them).

    Can the forums be made a better place? Yes, but it does mean that people are going to come off as elitist, and will attract the arrogant know-it-alls, which put a downer on even the most reasonable of discussions. That is solved when someone is in charge - community led is pure and utter BS: there's no such thing. There is no-one in charge, here, leaving a free-for-all 'community'. No different from the majority (all?) internet forums - the free exchange of idiocies.


    Stephen J Whiteley
    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 3:04 PM
  • @Stephen:  Much of what you say is true if not harsh, but I was curious to get your opinion on one point:

           "...since better developers are really the only way we don't end up with truly crappy software which we have all come to expect on a Microsoft platform"

    Assuming "crappy software" is actually a pressing problem in the greater marketplace, it strikes me that you are suggesting to address the problem on the supply side ratrher than demand.  I would think that market forces would weed out crappy software since either a) they are too buggy to be reliable; and/or b) real money is lost due to extended dev time, difficulties in sclability, flexibility, etc.

    Is this really a problem that can or should be solved through removing all the people who are non-CS educated or not truly brilliant self-starters? Seems backwards to me.

    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 7:47 PM
  • @Stephen:  Much of what you say is true if not harsh, but I was curious to get your opinion on one point:

           "...since better developers are really the only way we don't end up with truly crappy software which we have all come to expect on a Microsoft platform"

    Assuming "crappy software" is actually a pressing problem in the greater marketplace, it strikes me that you are suggesting to address the problem on the supply side ratrher than demand.  I would think that market forces would weed out crappy software since either a) they are too buggy to be reliable; and/or b) real money is lost due to extended dev time, difficulties in sclability, flexibility, etc.

    Is this really a problem that can or should be solved through removing all the people who are non-CS educated or not truly brilliant self-starters? Seems backwards to me.

    I am suggesting the problem lies on the supply side, however the demand side is culpable.

    Unfortunately, the market - even today - is too ignorant of computers to understand that they are getting a raw deal. Computers are not appliances, yet are sold as appliances. Further, we are trudging down a spiral where applications and computers which crash are, quite simply, no big deal.

    One could argue that if it is no big deal, then where is the problem?

    What if cars just sometimes worked? The fuel gauge not working is no big deal. Sometimes it takes 8 gallons sometimes 12, and you run out of gas (just keep a container of gasoline in the car). No big deal? Well, it is, because cars are nothing of the sort. They are reliable, safe, comfortable and quite simply easy to use. When it breaks, it is a big deal.

    What 'm saying is that it doesn't have to be that way, but we simply accept poor quality applications as 'that's the way it is'. This results in a new crop of developers who don't see an intermittent program with a crummy interface as a problem. It fits right in with the rest of the expansive herd of mediocrity.

    The reality is that not everyone is capable of being a developer. There are developers that really have no clue, but can bang out a mediocre application, call it right, and have very few complain. There are so few truly great applications that it's rare to encounter one, and when you do, you see how truly awful all the other applications you have to use really are.

    But here's the rub: 'if these applications get the job done, then where is the problem?'

    That's the dilemma, and this flawed response is troubling. If we go with that reasoning, at first, it seems beneficial: cheaper software for more people who can get their job done. But cheaper software also means lower paid developers: the development software is 'free', half of china can bang out on a keyboard creating mediocre software that people accept. Since it's pretty mediocre, they wouldn't pay for it anyway, but it gets the job done even if it feels like pulling teeth with pliers.

    This devalues your average computer science degree (not that it has much value now, anyway) to basically nothing. Even ignoring the stab at the underpaid workers in China, mediocrity has no value regardless of developers socioeconomic status. Essentially a developer becomes the antithesis of a garbage man, sitting in front of the computer.

    The truly brilliant self-starters can be ignored (in this example). They aren't the problem, but the only hope for a better experience for us all. They will be highly compensated to create the applications that others should be able to make, but are uneducated and ignorant of their own shortcomings or capabilities. For them, it's shooting fish in a barrel.

    The root cause, as always, is education. You cannot get an education on the internet. We are excluding the top 10%, here: they will always succed, regardless of the situation. The problem is the 'unwashed masses': learning to win, lose, what they can and can't do. When a western adolescent leaves school, their understanding of their capabilities is based on what they do, or do not like. They haven't been taught what their strengths and weaknesses are, and thus have little chance to recognize when things are beyond their capability.

    While, yes, there are several anecdotal individuals who eschewed education they are part of the brightest people in the world: the vast majority are not that bright, but they must be productive and be able to support themselves, and ultimately family.

    The bottom line is that the vast majority of code is poor quality - resulting in a poor application. Poor applications demand poor pay. Computers aren't going away soon, and the demand for good programmers will always be present. There are just too many poor programmers who cannot fill these shoes, yet have invested significant effort in 'programming for dummies' that the realization that they ain't very good comes far too late. They may try to push through based on their 'experience' but that is just keyboard time, and not true experience.

    The solution is to solve the education crisis (a flaw that applies to a significant proportion of our current world wide issues), reduce the number of bone heads who think/want to program, to understand that it is a discipline that not everyone can do and raise the quality of product to make [end users] using a computer enjoyable.

    [Hey, you asked]


    Stephen J Whiteley
    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:02 PM
  • SJ,

    Your note has much content... more than I can deal with here BUT this needs to be said here:

    "Further, we are trudging down a spiral where applications and computers which crash are, quite simply, no big deal."

    Microsoft has been a MAJOR proponent of software that 'usually works'.

    But I disagree on the root cause. I thinks it's capitalism, or profit-making.

    "The solution is to solve the education crisis (a flaw that applies to a significant proportion of our current world wide issues), reduce the number of bone heads who think/want to program, to understand that it is a discipline that not everyone can do and raise the quality of product to make [end users] using a computer enjoyable."

    The actual solution is multifold. First of all, computers demand that users THINK. People with average IQ's don't like to do that.

    i am not for dummies using computers. I think a user should be willing to learn - this is the basic problem with capitalism.

    Renee

     


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me


    • Edited by Renee Culver Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:25 PM
    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:15 PM
  • Who's to blame? ... Can we ask every body to be educated, to be brilliant?

     

    The young guy went to school to become developer,  They showed him nothing, but gave him a diploma.

    Now he is out there, he need to eat and pay his rent, so he is writing software. He don't really understand what he is doing,  but as long he gets a pay check it work. (And when he compare himself with the other that went to school with him, he don't see much of a difference and gets to think that he is not so bad). And when he really don't understand, ... There is the forum

     

    -------------

    Now, what about the not so brilliant self-starter. Well, Microsoft certainly don't provide him with any documentation. (Go in the documentation for a button, and give me a single sentence in there  that can be useful for a beginner. .. Or simply a sentence that he may understand. ) Yes there is books, but there is no book about everything and not every one can afford to by books . When he don't find or understand ... There is the forum

    -----------

    And what about the lazy one ... Here, there is no other better way, ... The forum

    -----------

    Etc...

    -----------

    What can you do about this? Do you have a way to educate every one on earth?

    --------------------------

    And what about those who answer these questions? 

    The choice they have is simple, or they answer or they don't

    What else can they do? No matter what they can try to do to change anything, ...

     

    Slowly the good ones go away ... and the bad ones keep posting bad answer

    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 11:17 PM
  • Who's to blame? ... Can we ask every body to be educated, to be brilliant?

     

    The young guy went to school to become developer,  They showed him nothing, but gave him a diploma.

    Now he is out there, he need to eat and pay his rent, so he is writing software. He don't really understand what he is doing,  but as long he gets a pay check it work. (And when he compare himself with the other that went to school with him, he don't see much of a difference and gets to think that he is not so bad). And when he really don't understand, ... There is the forum

     

    -------------

    Now, what about the not so brilliant self-starter. Well, Microsoft certainly don't provide him with any documentation. (Go in the documentation for a button, and give me a single sentence in there  that can be useful for a beginner. .. Or simply a sentence that he may understand. ) Yes there is books, but there is no book about everything and not every one can afford to by books . When he don't find or understand ... There is the forum

    -----------

    And what about the lazy one ... Here, there is no other better way, ... The forum

    -----------

    Etc...

    -----------

    What can you do about this? Do you have a way to educate every one on earth?

    --------------------------

    And what about those who answer these questions? 

    The choice they have is simple, or they answer or they don't

    What else can they do? No matter what they can try to do to change anything, ...

     

    Slowly the good ones go away ... and the bad ones keep posting bad answer


    Crazy,

    This is the single best response that I've seen posted here yet.

    To everyone else: It is my opinion that this forum is about people helping other people, no matter the situation or circumstance that brought them here. I can't say that what others have said doesn't have validity; it does ... but ultimately MS's 'hands off' approach to this forum is a good thing.

    "We" are a group of people collected by a common thing: Using VB dot Net.

    If you don't want to be here, don't be here.

    If you don't want to help, don't help ... but at the very least, don't be a hinderance to those who are trying to help nor to those trying to learn.

    Wednesday, January 18, 2012 11:31 PM
  • To everyone else: It is my opinion that this forum is about people helping other people, no matter the situation or circumstance that brought them here. I can't say that what others have said doesn't have validity; it does ... but ultimately MS's 'hands off' approach to this forum is a good thing.

    "We" are a group of people collected by a common thing: Using VB dot Net.

    If you don't want to be here, don't be here.

    If you don't want to help, don't help ... but at the very least, don't be a hinderance to those who are trying to help nor to those trying to learn.

    Couldn't have said it better.  Anyone is free to agitate for change.  But that ought to happen when change is (at last in theory) possible, for instance through the channels that MS provides for feedback.

    Accusing posters of using out-of-date techniques or failing to consult their help or being too cheap to go out and buy a book or choosing the wrong college or working for an employer that doesn't apply the right coding standards or not speaking proper English is not only pointless, it is inconsistent with the reason for being here. 

    And if anyone wonders about MS's 'hands-off' approach to the forums they possibly weren't around in the days when the forums were on UseNet and claims of censorship were frequent and typically very vitriolic.

    Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:58 AM
  • This thread is becoming so slow as to be unusable.

    "He don't really understand what he is doing,  but as long he gets a pay check it work. (And when he compare himself with the other that went to school with him, he don't see much of a difference and gets to think that he is not so bad)."

    This IS a problem, if not THE problem. Paychecks HAVE NOTHING TO DO with creativity and problem solving. It requires intelligence to see a dfference!

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:26 AM
  • ""We" are a group of people collected by a common thing: Using VB dot Net"

    No. We are a group of people who use VB. There have have been far better languages BUT capitalism has won out and killed them.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:30 AM
  •  

    Accusing posters of using out-of-date techniques or failing to consult their help or being too cheap to go out and buy a book or choosing the wrong college or working for an employer that doesn't apply the right coding standards or not speaking proper English is not only pointless, it is inconsistent with the reason for being here. 

    And if anyone wonders about MS's 'hands-off' approach to the forums they possibly weren't around in the days when the forums were on UseNet and claims of censorship were frequent and typically very vitriolic.

    But by the same token, giving someone a literal answer when in reality they asked the wrong question is just as bad.

    OP: How do I use a gun?

    Answerer: Open the chamber, insert a bullet, close the chamber, put the barrel to your forehead, pull trigger.

    OP: Ok, I'll give that a try and post back to let you know how it goes. kthxby

    =P

    Alright, so typically the answer doesn't lead the OP quite so far astray, but joke aside the point remains valid.

    I am a firm believer that sometimes the right answer is: "You've asked the wrong question."

    As for "back in the day", I and a number of others came here from windowsforms.com forums when these MSDN forums were created and they absorbed (users, posts, and all) the forums from windowsforms.com (at least from a certain date forward).  And that site was heavily driven by the ideas being expressed here (that users should get exactly as much effort put into their answer as they put into trying to solve their problem, and then put into asking their question).


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:02 AM
  •  

    If you don't want to be here, don't be here.

     

    @Frank:

    hehehe but it is so hard to get over the "we were here first" attitude! =P


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:04 AM
  • This thread is becoming so slow as to be unusable.

    "He don't really understand what he is doing,  but as long he gets a pay check it work. (And when he compare himself with the other that went to school with him, he don't see much of a difference and gets to think that he is not so bad)."

    This IS a problem, if not THE problem. Paychecks HAVE NOTHING TO DO with creativity and problem solving. It requires intelligence to see a dfference!

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

    Bull shit Renee, Bull shit ... Every one works to eat and have a home over its head ... And this is true also for the ones that are not so skilled and have lower intelligent ... They have the right to this ... And probably need more help then those that have the luck of being skilled and having higher intelligence.

    If you think in your egocentrism that you are too good for them, then just dont answer them


    • Edited by Crazypennie Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:14 AM
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:11 AM
  • @Frank:

    hehehe but it is so hard to get over the "we were here first" attitude! =P

    Reed,

    You are, without any doubt in my mind, one of the brightest, most informed and giving persons IN this forum.

    So back to Crazy's original post here - maybe y'all do set up a new forum, perhaps even with an entrance exam that must be passed prior to approval for "membership" into said new forum. That's a thought.

    But as for this forum - one which your participation in is greatly appreciated - I stand by what I said. I think it is about the "we" part of all here helping other here of this "we" society.

    :)

    Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:34 AM
  • "Bull shit Renee, Bull shit ... Every one works to eat and have a home over its head ... And this is true also for the ones that are not so skilled and have lower intelligent ... They have the right to this ... And probably need more help then those that have the luck of being skilled and having higher intelligence.

    If you think in your egocentrism that you are too good for them, then just dont answer them"

    Let's take this one point at at time.

    Calling what I say Bullshit and egocentrism is just negation of what I was saying.

    "Every one works to eat and have a home over its head"

    I didn't. I worked because a.) I loved it and b.) I wanted to learn.

    "They have the right to this ... And probably need more help then those that have the luck of being skilled and having higher intelligence."

    They can read OR get out of the field. It isn't as if the working that is being done is difficult. Rights? Is that why you're here? Rights?

    Meanwhile the field is being demolished by dummies?

    I help bright, self motivated people. And believe me I don't answer those I don't want to, ok?

    Renee

     


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

    Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:54 AM
  • But by the same token, giving someone a literal answer when in reality they asked the wrong question is just as bad.

    I am not saying there is no place for questioning what the user is doing, and providing alternatives.  But that (a) should be secondary to answering the question and (b) should not be in an accusative manner.  Both those things happen here far too often.

    In terms of your example "Open the chamber, insert a bullet, close the chamber, put the barrel to your forehead, pull trigger.  But please note that this could have serious consequences that you may not be expecting." Not "Why are you using an old-fashioned gun like people stopped using used twenty years ago?  Use a tazer instead" which is both disrespectful and unhelpful.


    • Edited by Acamar Thursday, January 19, 2012 3:11 AM sp
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 3:10 AM
  • "Who's to blame? ... Can we ask every body to be educated, to be brilliant?"

    Being real, isn't this what capitalism does? Capitalism pays people where there is is a need and they produce a superior product.

    Doing that requires a brighr and dedicated person to learn and think through encountered problems. People who do this well or sort of well, these days, are paid.

    "

    While, yes, there are several anecdotal individuals who eschewed education they are part of the brightest people in the world: the vast majority are not that bright, but they must be productive and be able to support themselves, and ultimately family.

    The bottom line is that the vast majority of code is poor quality - resulting in a poor application. Poor applications demand poor pay. Computers aren't going away soon, and the demand for good programmers will always be present. There are just too many poor programmers who cannot fill these shoes, yet have invested significant effort in 'programming for dummies' that the realization that they ain't very good comes far too late. They may try to push through based on their 'experience' but that is just keyboard time, and not true experience.

    The solution is to solve the education crisis (a flaw that applies to a significant proportion of our current world wide issues), reduce the number of bone heads who think/want to program, to understand that it is a discipline that not everyone can do and raise the quality of product to make [end users] using a computer enjoyable."

    Exactly!!!! and well put.

    Intellligence distributions are well known and intelligence is distributed. Why pretend differently? Why be egalitarian about it?

    Reward those who reward themselves.

    Renee

     


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 3:26 AM
  • "And probably need more help then those that have the luck toof being skilled and high intelligence."

    Skill is just that. In software it is the result of hardwork. Yes, I support helping people but not just anyone. Are they interested in solving their own problems? Have they done anything to solve the problem? If so, what? Did they concisely state what the problem was?

    The last item takes skill that must be developerd. It's a lot better to be developing skills than it is to offer a solution to the problem.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:40 AM
  • ... I think it is about the "we" part of all here helping other here of this "we" society.

    :)

    Even if everyone in the "we" society is knee deep in BS eating coal by candlelight? Is ok because everyone is in this society? Is sharing ones own coal and candlelight really helping?

    Are those who would try for something better than coal and candlelight to be condemned because they don't fit in to the 'we' society?

    [This isn't directed directly a you, Frank, but in general]

    And to answer:

         "What can you do about this? Do you have a way to educate every one on earth?"

    Yes: we must educate everybody. But the issue is that 'society' ('we') determines what education is, and is not. On the whole, any given society has a lower capability and expertise on any given aspect of that society than an individual in that society. This doesn't mean that an individual (or elite group) determines everything which goes on, but, by way of example, a chef in a society decides what and how to cook, but the society does decide what to eat: society cannot and should not dictate the actions or methods of the chef (which is, unfortunately the whole problem with the education today).


    Stephen J Whiteley
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:34 PM
  • Renee,

    Being programmer, sure require constant study and a lot of work, but it is also an ART. If you are not gifted with a minimum of talent, you will never be very good, no matter how much you try. (I can spend the rest of my life painting, I will never paint like Micheal Angelo)

    It is easy to blame Microsoft, but Microsoft buisness is to produce software, not to run a college or university.

    Irving are building hammers, the don't show people how to be carpenter, Philips builds hospital equipment, they don't show people how to be a doctor, Frigidaire builds oven, they don't show people how to chief.

     

    If someone has to be blamed, it is the colleges and Universities. They just don't do their job. 

    The young guy that was told by a college "Come on, pay your $50,000+ fee and will make a great developer out of you" and that at the end was told "Now you are great" and was given a diploma, ( while in all reality he was not educated at all to become developer),  is he to blame, or is he a victim. 

    And can he really go and and learn something else? He own a lot of money that he borrowed to pay his college fee, Mom and Dad start to be tire to support him, there is this girl that he want to marry, and ya, he needs to eat and have a bed.

    And what is the reality of his life, on one side, he has a boss that is telling him, "If you cannot get this done, you are fired!" and in the other side, there is that button in the IDE that brings him to the forum and puts him in contact whit some people that, in his mind, know every thing about everything. 

    This is a sad picture but it is the reallity for many.

     

     

    ----------

    Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:52 PM
  • I agree with SJ.

    "It is easy to blame Microsoft, but Microsoft buisness is to produce software, not to run a college or university."

    Microsoft sets standards and they do have more power than Universities. The fact is that Microsoft is interested in profit, not the calber of developers. Mibrosoft is busy making software simple so it will sell. That's it and that's all they care about.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:59 PM
  • A.) This forum is TECHNICALLY awful and MS doesn't care. They make it nicer looking and it will be fine...except it wont work.

    B.)
    "The reality is that not everyone is capable of being a developer."

    Profit heresy..... pure profit heresy. Microsoft needs to pretend that all people are potential developers.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me
    Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:14 PM
  • Who is in charge of the forums at Microsoft?

    Is it Ed Price, ... Or somebody else?


    My ears just went up! Someone's talking about me.

    Love your dog avatar. Is it yours?

    No, not me.

    This is a good idea. There's a wiki article to add feature requests. I can mention it to Brent and the others too (if they haven't already read this).


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Friday, January 27, 2012 3:01 AM
  • Ed,

    nice from you that you participate in this thread. I don`t know if you have read this thread and also the initial thread ( A Troll Hunt May be in Order ). If you didn`t read both threads ( i can understand if you didn`t as the loading time really sucks ) here is just a small summary.

    @ the regulars: please correct me if i have understood this wrong ;-)

    We, that means some ( most ) of the regulars in the Visual Basic General forum ( and in some other forums as well ), came to the conclusion that one big problem is, that we ( the regulars ) sometimes/often are (kind of) hijacking a thread and starting a (kind of) flame war, because our opinion/knowledge/experience differ.

    So we thought it would be best for us ( and also for the original posters ) if we would discuss such things in a more private area. Some of us have allready started a forum to get to know each other better, but the problem is that monitoring 2 different forum systems is just not the best way to do this.

    So if Microsoft would provide a Regular`s forum we could just add it to "My forums" and monitor them all together.

    We also discussed about who should be allowed to participate in this Regular`s forum, how to define a regular and one possibility would be that a member who has got a gold answerer achievment could participate.

    So the question still is who is in charge of the forums at Microsoft. Do you know this ? If yes can you maybe drop me an email with his/her mail address at socialmsdn (the sign you allready know) heslach.com, because we would like to discuss this with the person who is in charge directly.

    Btw, as you have noticed this thread now can you please move it again to the Visual Basic General forum ? I don`t know why this had been moved ( yeah ok i can imagine ) but i don`t know if the other regulars also added this forum to their "My forums".

    Thanks


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    • Edited by Heslacher Friday, January 27, 2012 7:50 AM
    Friday, January 27, 2012 7:49 AM
  • In terms of your example "Open the chamber, insert a bullet, close the chamber, put the barrel to your forehead, pull trigger.  But please note that this could have serious consequences that you may not be expecting."


    I thought this thread had run it's natural course so I hadn't read it for a few days.

    @Acamar

    that is great. I'm still chuckling over that one 5 minutes later.

    Unfortunately, there are too many examples of the OP not listening to the experience of those missing half their skull, and they go ahead and pull the trigger anyway.

    Nothing to be done about it, except watch for the next posted question about why the code marked as the answer in the previous post is now doing exactly what was warned about.

    The old saying about "leading a horse to water..." comes to mind.

    Friday, January 27, 2012 7:58 AM
  • Heslacher,

    I passed on the request. You can also add it to the Wiki article that lists the feature requests.

    A short-term solution would be to start a thread in the Off Topic forum. Nobody would stop you there, and it's still tied to the forum system.

    Plus we should hopeully get an improvement in early Feb to speed up loading long threads like this.

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Friday, January 27, 2012 9:37 AM
  • Ed, just added to the feature list.
    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Friday, January 27, 2012 9:52 AM
  • Who is in charge of the forums at Microsoft?

    Is it Ed Price, ... Or somebody else?


    My ears just went up! Someone's talking about me.

    Love your dog avatar. Is it yours?

    No, not me.

    This is a good idea. There's a wiki article to add feature requests. I can mention it to Brent and the others too (if they haven't already read this).


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)

    I Ed,

     

    Yes it is my dog (It is in fact the real Crazypennie)

    I am a little late and Heslacher already gave you a good summary of what we would like to have.

    I believe that it would be a great tool for the regulars to be able to talk together, ... to solve our different, but also to improve the way we answer the OP's questions

     

    Thank you very much for your help

    Luc


    • Edited by Crazypennie Friday, January 27, 2012 5:30 PM
    Friday, January 27, 2012 5:04 PM
  • Heslacher,

    I passed on the request. You can also add it to the Wiki article that lists the feature requests.

    A short-term solution would be to start a thread in the Off Topic forum. Nobody would stop you there, and it's still tied to the forum system.

    Plus we should hopeully get an improvement in early Feb to speed up loading long threads like this.

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)

    For those who are wondering, the wiki page is here: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/4703.feature-requests-for-technet-and-msdn-profiles-and-social-platform-tools.aspx

    Ed, is there any place we can track this request or possibly offer comment other than the release notes (http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/5282.release-notes-technet-and-msdn-forums-and-profiles.aspx) where we find out what happened after the fact? 

     

     

    Friday, January 27, 2012 6:45 PM
  • Time for Version 3 for this thread? How about in the Off Topic forum (until a better place is found)?

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Friday, January 27, 2012 6:49 PM
  • For those who are wondering, the wiki page is here: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/4703.feature-requests-for-technet-and-msdn-profiles-and-social-platform-tools.aspx

    Ed, is there any place we can track this request or possibly offer comment other than the release notes (http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/5282.release-notes-technet-and-msdn-forums-and-profiles.aspx) where we find out what happened after the fact? 


    Thanks Dig-Boy!

    Yeah, actually it's in the notes column (on the right), in line for each item in the first link (Feature Requests). It says "ANSWER". Then at the bottom is the list when they're completed/closed. - So there's not a ton of action, but we do review and comb through them, replying when we can. One reason is because a lot of the forum and social tool improvements are made when possible (like jumping on opportunities). So they come fast and furious. The second reason is that the teams are small (in some cases, only a few people).

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)

    Friday, January 27, 2012 7:34 PM
  • Ed, just added to the feature list.
    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/

    Thanks Hannes!
    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Friday, January 27, 2012 7:37 PM
  •  

    One reason is because a lot of the forum and social tool improvements are made when possible (like jumping on opportunities). So they come fast and furious.


    Sounds like where I work....  only more methodical and organized.  ;)

    Thanks for the info.

    Friday, January 27, 2012 7:55 PM
  • I Started a thread on the Off Topic Forum. Ed idea for this is good. And this thread is getting very slow 

     

     

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/Offtopic/thread/09f310a4-4324-4cd9-b6ae-edf13e44cbf7

    Friday, January 27, 2012 10:16 PM
  • Luc,

    As this is now outside the area of Troll hunt; about which you know most probably my opinion.

    What is wrong to use the discussions in the forums where you and I are active to share the things we bother about. 

    I'm an MVP and I hope guys like you and Hannes will become that in feature. 

    My experience is that Microsoft don't care about all kind of special made rules, those are probably made by guys like Ed. Those do their best to get some regulation in the communication in the forums. 

    Community leaders like Hannes and you (and I hope you see me in the same way) are not bound to that. Do it like John Oliver, he is a good example of an excelent community member in communication. Simply use the discussion threads to talk to each other. Ed is not the boss of Microsoft. Microsoft is only interested in well going communities where knowledge around Microsoft products is shared without that it is direct sales talk.

    JMO

    :-)

    If I've abused you, sorry Ed, was not meant anything against you but for the welfare of communities.

     

     


    Success
    Cor
    • Edited by Cor Ligthert Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:49 AM changed conduct to all kind of rules, simply a stupidity of me
    Friday, January 27, 2012 11:00 PM
  • Cor,

    I actually don't move discussions out of forums where the community is naturally forming bonds. But some folks do.

    People were asking for a place to chat where Moderators and MS employees would not bug them, and where they can still be connected into the Profile system (to find threads, see activity, etc.).

    The Off Topic forums is an easy solution that's available right now. So that's why I'm recommending it. I'm not saying that they should not have discussions in other forums. I'm sorry if you thought that was what I was saying (definitely not).

    I agree with you. And I assure you that Microsoft employees do care and do want to help build the community for the same reasons (I understand that it's easy to interpret otherwise).

    Thanks!

     

     

    And ye


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:34 AM
  • I Started a thread on the Off Topic Forum. Ed idea for this is good. And this thread is getting very slow 

     

     

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/Offtopic/thread/09f310a4-4324-4cd9-b6ae-edf13e44cbf7


    CP,

    You might also want to add the link to your first post in this forum. That's usually what we do when we "retire" long discussions like this.

    Thanks!


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:36 AM
  • Ed,

    There is one thing in your suggestion that does not fit, the name of that Off Topic forum, the name:

    Off-Topic Posts (Do Not Post Here)

    :-)

     


    Success
    Cor
    Saturday, January 28, 2012 7:03 AM
  • Oh no! You asked in the forum that takes 30 minutes to load! =^)

    (Or less than 30 minutes.)

     

    Yes, but the reason why it says "Do Not Post Here" is because people are posting there and asking questions. Crickets. No one's there to answer any questions. That's all it means.

    (Knock on wood.)

    Thanks! 


    Ed Price a.k.a User Ed, Microsoft Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)
    Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:23 AM
  • We've gotten already messages from a moderator who has written that using that forum for discussions was not allowed.
    Success
    Cor
    Thursday, February 2, 2012 2:56 PM
  • We all have such high opinions of ourselves, don't we?

    Without saying names, I have been trolled/flamed by some of the people that are in support of this thread. Some people who are "reputable" and "professional"... 

    This definitely sounds like a way of excluding newer members from accessing and providing potentially important material. I don't really think segregation is a solution. And whenever you point a finger, you have 3 pointing back at yourself.

        That being said, if you are a member with assumed seniority(via reputation points), I think it should be your added responsibility to encourage contributors with less points (such as myself) to continue helping people who ask questions. I don't think that reputation points should be awarded for having a pissing contest with every other programmer who might have something to say about it.

    That's just my opinion on the subject, just in case anyone here really cared what I had to say about it.


    If you want something you've never had, you need to do something you've never done. If you believe something to be true, then one day you will be called upon to demonstrate that truth.


    • Edited by Paul Ishak Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:49 AM
    Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:37 AM
  • Paul,

    Be aware that with pointing to us, you pointing as well to yourself. I checked your latest activity and saw a long thread where you where in discussion with some of us, it can be that I missed one, but there you are in most replies which I've read threaten like a professional; because otherwise there was not taken so much time for the discussion. 

    Most of us who are active in the forums do that to learn ourselves, we look at what others say, we try replies we see and test them if it interesting for us, discuss sometimes things if we are not sure and help those who are new and also check the answers which are given by others to check that no wrong "truth" goes around in the world.

    Be aware we active here are from different cultures all over the world; that has not to do with the language which is used, but the way we think others will receive our message and therefore are not always using the words (not language) which are maybe used in your culture. Keep in mind there is no default culture: not the Indian one, not the Chinese one, not the US one and not the European one. 

    As long as we try to respect each other: not write that the other is stupid; or likewise; or tell that you are giving always wrong replies; or whatever denigrating; or telling only about our own superiority, then there can in my opinion be not anything wrong; in fact we are testing by this our own skills.

    Know that we all can be wrong even you (At least that counts for me)



    Success
    Cor


    • Edited by Cor Ligthert Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:13 AM words and puntation
    Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:47 AM
  • Cor good job clarifying this! I agree with you, this is exactly why I think it is important to consider some of the factors of creating a "regular's lounge" and how its not a good thing, as it would somehow insinuate to the world that points gained by answering forum questions somehow equates to as you said it, "superiority", in which case it isn't true. Cor I also think that  you are most certainly right about cultures and no particular culture owning the forum. Ultimately I agree that everyone has something to teach, and something to learn. There is no one person with all of the answers and all of the knowledge. Believe me you, I am aware that we can all be wrong! Now the trick is getting the other "regulars" to admit it... =) Have a nice night

    If you want something you've never had, you need to do something you've never done. If you believe something to be true, then one day you will be called upon to demonstrate that truth.

    Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:41 AM
  • That's a debate in itself. I've had many computer languages and believe it or not Great ones existed prior to microsoft and C. When I used those languages I did not ask for anything. Indeed, it was before the internet existed. Things were very good then.

    Thanks

    Martini (MCP)

    I <3 MSFT - Website

    Thursday, April 21, 2016 7:47 AM
  • I received a note in email from a Martins or Martini and was compelled to respond. First of all, Hello to Reed, Frank, Stephen, Cor and Crazypenny. I don't know why I received the note this thread but hello.

    Is there a problem?

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

    Thursday, April 21, 2016 12:44 PM
  • Hi Renee, glad to see you are still around.  :)

    I have no idea what might have resurrected this thread, but good to hear from you.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

    Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:24 PM
  • Well Thank you! I don't know what resurrected the thread either but I did discover how much each of you all to mean to me and that I miss you all. Hmmm I do have one hard question. I guess i shoild save it for the forum!

    Oh and on the resurrection...I received a post from this thread in my email.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

    Thursday, April 21, 2016 3:33 PM
  • ...

    Oh and on the resurrection...I received a post from this thread in my email.

    ...

    Oh I see it, just about the half-way point on the scroll bar in threaded view... user Martinism necroposted and resurrected the thread.  She was just making an observation; it doesn't look like it reopens the conversation or requires a response.

    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

    Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:25 PM