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Running Vista VPC on WHS for Media Center extenders? RRS feed

  • Question

  • My WHS server is my only "always-on" PC in the house. I also have two XBox 360's and a couple Vista PC's. I love the Media Center interface you get on the 360 when connecting to my Vista PC and it got me thinking.

    Does anyone have any experiences or thoughts on running Vista in VPC on your WHS for the sole purpose of the Media Center extender capabilities?

    If anyone has run this, what are the bare minimums you need to get Vista up and running so that its accessible from extenders (since that will be the only thing its used for). i.e. Memory devoted to it, Vista services, features, etc?

    Thanks!
    Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:45 PM

Answers

  • Well, what you want to do is unsupported at a number of levels. "Unsupported" in this case doesn't mean "won't work" it means "if there's a problem, you may have to resolve it without any assistance". So it'll probably work, but:

    • Remote Desktop connections to your server aren't supported, and because your server isn't designed for that kind of interaction, it's possible to cause a variety of problems.
    • Virtual PC is also not supported on Windows Home Server. 
    • In addition, it's a technical violation of your EULA (which prohibits enabling server roles not enabled by Microsoft on installation). Not that you'll be hunted for doing it, but if it concerns you...
    • Virtual PC doesn't offer the same level of performance as Virtual Server, and they both fall shy of dedicated hardware.
    • Virtual PC doesn't offer a way to start a virtual machine with the host, so you will have to log in as an administrator to start your virtual machine.
    • You'll probably have trouble with any tuners you may have; Windows Home Server isn't designed to be a HTPC, and you may not be able to pass that hardware through to Virtual PC (or Virtual Server, for that matter).
    The supported and recommended solution at this time is a "two box" solution, with Windows Home Server providing network storage for a Vista Media Center HTPC.

    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:33 PM
    Moderator
  • Not really though... he just explained that its not supported, not that it doesnt work or that no one else has done it. I know that technically theres nothing preventing it from working (short of the tuner part - which wasnt planning on using anyway). I was just curious if anyone else has given it a shot.
    Just because it's not supported doesn't mean you shouldn't try it. It does mean you should take a realistic assessment of your technical skills (we all think we've got great technical skills, I know, but if you look at some of the questions that are asked you'll realize that that's not the reality), and expect that there will be all sorts of bumps along the way that, honestly, nobody is going to help you with because we're not doing exactly what you are, in exactly the way you're doing it. At best, we'll point you in the right direction.

    It also means that there are risks, some well-defined (mess around with your storage configuration in the MMC Disk Management snap-in and you're running a high risk of data loss), some not (messing with the security in your shares can produce subtle issues that you don't notice for weeks).

    You should also come up with a set of reasonable goals that you think you're likely to be able to meet, and another set of "pie in the sky" goals if the realistic ones turn out to be too easy.

    The one thing I will recommend very strongly is to not use Virtual PC. For what you want to do, you will need the guest operating system to start automatically with the host. Look at VMWare or Virtual Server instead, or some other virtualization technology that can be set up to start automatically on boot.

    And don't expect amazing performance.

    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 4:16 AM
    Moderator

All replies

  • Well, what you want to do is unsupported at a number of levels. "Unsupported" in this case doesn't mean "won't work" it means "if there's a problem, you may have to resolve it without any assistance". So it'll probably work, but:

    • Remote Desktop connections to your server aren't supported, and because your server isn't designed for that kind of interaction, it's possible to cause a variety of problems.
    • Virtual PC is also not supported on Windows Home Server. 
    • In addition, it's a technical violation of your EULA (which prohibits enabling server roles not enabled by Microsoft on installation). Not that you'll be hunted for doing it, but if it concerns you...
    • Virtual PC doesn't offer the same level of performance as Virtual Server, and they both fall shy of dedicated hardware.
    • Virtual PC doesn't offer a way to start a virtual machine with the host, so you will have to log in as an administrator to start your virtual machine.
    • You'll probably have trouble with any tuners you may have; Windows Home Server isn't designed to be a HTPC, and you may not be able to pass that hardware through to Virtual PC (or Virtual Server, for that matter).
    The supported and recommended solution at this time is a "two box" solution, with Windows Home Server providing network storage for a Vista Media Center HTPC.

    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:33 PM
    Moderator
  • i am running my trial version (WHS) on my vista media center computer through vmware server 2. It works good so far. Windows needs alot of updates, which means when you have to restart the host machine, the guest OS also gets restrated.
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:46 AM
  • i am running my trial version (WHS) on my vista media center computer through vmware server 2. It works good so far. Windows needs alot of updates, which means when you have to restart the host machine, the guest OS also gets restrated.
    However, the OP wants the other way around (Vista MC on WHS).
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:54 AM
    Moderator
  • just a suggestion that seems to be working for me.
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:57 AM
  • i am running my trial version (WHS) on my vista media center computer through vmware server 2. It works good so far. Windows needs alot of updates, which means when you have to restart the host machine, the guest OS also gets restrated.
    However, the OP wants the other way around (Vista MC on WHS).
    Correct... this is exactly what I want - Vista guest running on a WHS host. WHS is running as the host so I can take advantage of the drive extender functionality (among other reasons).
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:33 AM
  • Correct... this is exactly what I want - Vista guest running on a WHS host. WHS is running as the host so I can take advantage of the drive extender functionality (among other reasons).

    Unforunately, Ken already answered your question (even though it's not the answer you're looking for).
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:52 AM
    Moderator
  • Correct... this is exactly what I want - Vista guest running on a WHS host. WHS is running as the host so I can take advantage of the drive extender functionality (among other reasons).

    Unforunately, Ken already answered your question (even though it's not the answer you're looking for).
    Not really though... he just explained that its not supported, not that it doesnt work or that no one else has done it. I know that technically theres nothing preventing it from working (short of the tuner part - which wasnt planning on using anyway). I was just curious if anyone else has given it a shot.
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:05 AM
  • Not really though... he just explained that its not supported, not that it doesnt work or that no one else has done it. I know that technically theres nothing preventing it from working (short of the tuner part - which wasnt planning on using anyway). I was just curious if anyone else has given it a shot.
    Just because it's not supported doesn't mean you shouldn't try it. It does mean you should take a realistic assessment of your technical skills (we all think we've got great technical skills, I know, but if you look at some of the questions that are asked you'll realize that that's not the reality), and expect that there will be all sorts of bumps along the way that, honestly, nobody is going to help you with because we're not doing exactly what you are, in exactly the way you're doing it. At best, we'll point you in the right direction.

    It also means that there are risks, some well-defined (mess around with your storage configuration in the MMC Disk Management snap-in and you're running a high risk of data loss), some not (messing with the security in your shares can produce subtle issues that you don't notice for weeks).

    You should also come up with a set of reasonable goals that you think you're likely to be able to meet, and another set of "pie in the sky" goals if the realistic ones turn out to be too easy.

    The one thing I will recommend very strongly is to not use Virtual PC. For what you want to do, you will need the guest operating system to start automatically with the host. Look at VMWare or Virtual Server instead, or some other virtualization technology that can be set up to start automatically on boot.

    And don't expect amazing performance.

    I'm not on the WHS team, I just post a lot. :)
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 4:16 AM
    Moderator
  • I appreciate your feedback Ken. I have a solid amount experience dealing with Virtual PC, Virtual Server, and VMWare workstation from the line of work Im in and realize (most of) the potential risks and intend to plan around as many of them accordingly (i.e. store the image on a disk separate from the WHS storage pool).

    Im not looking for technical assistance, nor would I expect any if things didnt work out. I just figured Id post in case anyone had experience with it or had any thoughts (or concerns) about it. I didnt think of the automatic boot problem until you mentioned it, for example, so thats one thing I wouldnt have realized until after the fact. I think Im going to give VirtualBox a try as it offers a method to auto-start VM's on host start up, has a smaller footprint than VirtualServer and VMWare Workstation, and a very active community.

    I have backups of my backups and the worst case scenario is my server gets completely hosed (which I dont expect will happen) and I have to rebuild and restore - one of the risks of being an "enthusiast" I suppose :). The best case scenario is Im able to acccess the Media Center interface from my 360 without the need of another "always on" PC in my house - and saving energy at the same time.

    Thanks again and if anyone else has anything more to add please feel free!
    Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:33 PM
  • I have mine virtualized with XenServer Free. It works great! I have my HomeServer and Vista Ultimate which hosts my extenders. It litteraly looks to the HomeServer as a physical machine. Funny thing is that it reall does seem to run faster when files are compressed to upload to connected pcs over the net. You are getting neer bare metal performance and becuause chances are you able to allocate memory and cpu, you will never have one machine taxed due to the other. It is free to try. And most importantly, as stated by timofcourse, you now will have a true back up of the home server if you want.
    Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:31 AM
  • I'm also planning to virtualize WHS inside a Vista MCE box.  I've been running these two "always on" machines for a long time and I'm interested in reducing the power draw.  This should save 40-50 watts total, simplify my physical network, and provide a mechanism to back up the entire WHS configuration.  I'm currently planning VMWare Server as the technology of choice.  I believe it'll allow for starting and shutting down the guest automatically when the physical machine is started/stopped. 

    I know this is the opposite direction from what the OP is expecting to do, but I think it's a superior config.  Articles I've come across where people have attempted virtualizing MCE seem to mention a lot of issues surrounding tuner hardware and stuttering.  Do a search at TheGreenButton.com for more info.  And report back if it works! 
    Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:13 PM
  • I defintely want to keep WHS as the devoted host, otherwise youll lose perhaps one of the most important WHS features (IMHO) - the drive extender / file duplication functionality. Especially due to the fact my WHS houses ALL of my important files and system backups, I certainly dont want to mess around with an unsupported configuration for such an important machine. If my Vista MCE box dies or gets screwed up somehow, I can live with that. Also, I have no intention on using a tuner in my configuration, so thats probably another big factor I dont need to worry about.

    I hope to tackle this sometime in the next week or so as soon as I get some additional RAM I recently ordered. Ill be sure to post back my results!
    Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:21 PM
  • Yeah those are good points.  My backup plan will be to save the entire VMWare image to an external drive which is a manual process (for now), but it's also something that's hard to do without virtualization.  It's a neat way of backing up WHS.  I may also use the "backup shared folders to external drive" functionality that was added in PP1 and seems very similar to the folder duplication in WHS.

    Anyway, good luck.  If you get this working then I may follow!  I watch all of my MCE content through an X360 and a Linksys extender, so graphics hardware is a non-issue for me.  The tuners are where I would expect the most trouble, followed by the network performance. 
    Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:18 PM
  • I wonder if disabled audio on the WHS host would affect all the guest OSs. It may not be necessary if Media Center does all the audio work itself and pass to the extenders.


    I'm running Server 2008 with Hyper-V as a host myself. WHS as a guest as been an absolute breeze. And the disk passthrough makes all the data drives accessible as native disks (sadly you can't do the system drive this way as you cannot boot from the virtual SCSI controller)
    Friday, April 17, 2009 5:00 AM
  • I have tried this with VMware, and it did work, however there were some performance issues.  Make sure your machines has a lot of horsepower to run both OS's.  I have my WHS running on an older machine that just didn't  quite do it.  It's an IBM Intellistation with 2x1.7ghz Xeon's, 2GB of 800Mhz RD RAM, and lots of HD space.  Additionally, I have heard that the tuner cards are sometimes tricky to connect to your VM.  I was able to connect a ATI 650HD by USB to the guest OS(Vista Ultimate 32bit).  Finally, if you can run 64bit versions, this might also help performance.  In the end I went back to the separate machines for now until I can get my hands on something a little stronger.
    Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:09 PM